[OSGeo Africa] Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 15
Michael Manyama
phalageospatial at gmail.com
Tue Jun 28 00:35:29 PDT 2016
On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Gerhard Brits <BritsJG at eskom.co.za> wrote:
> Peter
>
> That all good for land surveyor. Only land surveyors really do land
> survey( more or less). But GIS on the other hand can be done by IT/IM
> Professionals, Geographers, Environmental people, conservation, geologist,
> software developers. The list goes on not just GIS solely trained people.
> This is the problem with plato it looks at the industry through a very
> small pipe.
>
> Plato does not do the marketing I agree, but it cause that the industry
> does not develop.
>
> Regards
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:
> africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of
> africa-request at lists.osgeo.org
> Sent: 05 June 2013 04:36 PM
> To: africa at lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 15
>
> Send Africa mailing list submissions to
> africa at lists.osgeo.org
>
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 12 (Peter Newmarch)
> 2. Re: Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 14 (Gerhard Brits)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 16:15:06 +0200
> From: Peter Newmarch <newmarch at land-surveyors.com>
> To: Africa local chapter discussions <africa at lists.osgeo.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 12
> Message-ID: <51AF47EA.5080108 at land-surveyors.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Gerhard
>
> Its about marketing. you cannot stop people from using / buying or selling
> GIS - well not until there is work reservation in some way, which I don't
> see ever happening at a GIS user level.
>
> Certainly the people who write software don't have to be registered either
> - in the same way that the manufacturer of an x-ray machine is probably not
> a doctor. What can be stopped is where the state requires services of some
> sort - at that point it should be registered people only need apply.
>
> For me, I am a land surveyor come GIS user - I also happen to be the
> president of SAGI and we have very effectively started putting a stop to
> using unregistered people in the surveying business - its a very long slog
> and difficult, but it needed to be done - still ongoing. To give you an
> example, we have a very effective letter on our website in which we inform
> engineers about the risks of using unregistered people. Many clients have
> now sent us there databases and asked us to clean out the unregistered
> people for them !! - lovely stuff and shows how effective marketing and
> unity as a profession can be. Of course their is always the difficult
> department or private company, but we have ways and means of dealing with
> them as well and eventually they see it our way.
>
> So it can be done in GIS, one just needs better consensus and a strong
> will to fix it up. Plato wont do your marketing for you.
>
> I have not been involved in the GIS academic model for registration - so I
> cannot comment on that, my understanding though is that its been drawn up
> by GIS people themselves and not outsiders.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
> > Peter
> >
> > What do we do while we wait for the new bill? In the end I wonder how a
> bill or a registration can stop any person from going online downloading
> software data set-up shop in a day and sell a product tomorrow to however
> has money.
> >
> > I agree the way the registration is done is wrong and maybe we should
> look to the software vendors model. ESRI has a certification test on their
> software and that test certifies that you are competent to either
> administrate a database, develop software or operate the desktop software.
> FME from Safe software has the same certification that relies on you
> presenting a portfolio of work done, Microsoft has the same type of thing.
> >
> > My point is the registration should be open ended so that the GIS
> industry can grow and multiple disciplines can converge. Is the
> multi-disciplinary requirement of GIS not the one things that makes GIS so
> unique, useful and problematic. People that truly master the science are
> dynamic, multi-skilled people? Plato in my mind keeps people out of the
> industry.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Gerhard Brits
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> > [mailto:africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of
> > africa-request at lists.osgeo.org
> > Sent: 05 June 2013 03:22 PM
> > To: africa at lists.osgeo.org
> > Subject: Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 12
> >
> > Send Africa mailing list submissions to
> > africa at lists.osgeo.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > africa-request at lists.osgeo.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > africa-owner at lists.osgeo.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of Africa digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues (Peter Newmarch)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 15:21:43 +0200
> > From: Peter Newmarch <newmarch at land-surveyors.com>
> > To: africa at lists.osgeo.org
> > Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues
> > Message-ID: <51AF3B67.5080901 at land-surveyors.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> >
> > On the issue of PLATO, let me just say this. PLATO or the new council
> > to be formed when the geomatics bill is passed (lets also call that
> > for arguments sake PLATO) is there to provide a platform for
> > registration in which people are held to account but also have the
> > required knowledge / competency. Now I don't want to go into the
> > competency / knowledge debate. But as a legal structure binding on the
> > state, the state has a duty to employ registered people. Just as it
> > does doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants etc.... so any new
> > vacancy in the state must be filled by way of a Plato registered
> > person. It does not mean that a private company must employ a PLATO
> > person, on the contrary they can employ whoever they so wish. There
> > are however very strong arguments why even private companies should
> > use registered people. The state can only give work to registered
> > people. If nobody in the company is registered with Plato - it could
> > be very difficult doing business with government in the
> fu
> > ture.
> >
> > If and when work reservation where to be established for GIS - then such
> functions would be binding on everybody in SA.
> >
> > on the question of knowledge / competency - every domain has the same
> problems, the solution I think it that the approach to articles must
> change. At the moment this tick box approach of doing X days this and Y
> days that does not work. A new approach should be outcomes based, and based
> on a foundation of tasks that lead to various outcomes such as problem
> solving, risk analysis etc.. etc... - it will take students longer to
> complete, but I don't see any other way around the poor standards of
> knowledge and application and the ability to think and problem solve.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > On 2013/06/05 02:30 PM, Gerhard Brits wrote:
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >> I have been following this discussion trough out the morning.
> >>
> >> What does it matter if you have a degree or a semester course in GIS.
> We have engineers that operate GIS applications. It is how you use GIS and
> the environment that you implement it that determines what educational
> background you need. In my short career in GIS have seen very few people
> that are competent that have some GIS degree or remote sensing background
> and register with PLATO, but they have no clue what it means to convert
> file types or to write a simple SQL query. So I do not understand even the
> role of PLATO. Does n programmer need to be registered with PLATO? Maybe it
> is just me being bias.
> >>
> >> Government is a special place and very few GIS practitioners have the
> ability to influence how the IM/IT landscape is planned. The problem that
> we have in this world. The people that need to use systems do not have the
> ability to find solutions to problems themselves. So most government
> departments have put in large amount of money into developing staff to use
> a software. To change to open source platform causes a large amount of
> money to be spent to retrain people.
> >>
> >> I think something we need to employ in the FOSS environment it to have
> some certification for service providers. So that government/business know
> that who they employee will deliver a professional and reliable service.
> Secondly IT/IM decision makers should be educated in what is available in
> the open source stack and how it can be used and the ease of use. GIS users
> should not be retrained but just moved to new platforms.
> >>
> >> The way that the open source community is approaching business and
> government is wrong I believe. Do not force something and do not sell
> yourself on the basis that the software is free or very cheap. Sell
> yourself by showing how good it is, how scalable, and how simple it is to
> use. What type of support is available and how that support will be given
> to the client.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> >> [mailto:africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of
> >> africa-request at lists.osgeo.org
> >> Sent: 05 June 2013 01:20 PM
> >> To: africa at lists.osgeo.org
> >> Subject: Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 9
> >>
> >> Send Africa mailing list submissions to
> >> africa at lists.osgeo.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> africa-request at lists.osgeo.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> africa-owner at lists.osgeo.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Africa digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. FW: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues (Walter Smit)
> >> 2. Re: FW: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues (Llewellyn Gush)
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 12:19:27 +0200
> >> From: "Walter Smit" <walter.s at sa-solutions.co.za>
> >> To: "Africa local chapter discussions" <africa at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> Subject: [OSGeo Africa] FW: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues
> >> Message-ID: <004e01ce61d6$2bce9ea0$836bdbe0$@sa-solutions.co.za>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> Hi Ray
> >>
> >> I have been physically deployed in a national government department
> (DRDLR) for the past 18months and many of your points are very true. I
> could write a whole essay about it, but here are some quick points.
> >>
> >> * Training and inexperienced staff ? I have had to teach
> graduated GIS people (from various universities) what the difference is
> between files and folders. Seems to me that many universities are missing
> the plot completely on how to make young people ready for actual work.
> >>
> >> * ?not programmers? ? true, but the FOSS software I have used
> does not require any more programming than over-the-counter suites.
> >>
> >> * Enough PGPs? Correct, there are very few. It is however a
> fallacy that you need to be mentored by a PGP to be able to register with
> Plato (I was not ? and I didn?t get the benefit of the Grandfather clause
> either). I don?t know who started this lie, but it seems to stop people
> from even trying to register.
> >>
> >> * I cannot comment on unscrupulous service providers ? solutions
> should be scalable.
> >>
> >> * Freestate in the limelight ? I actually asked someone with
> more knowledge than the reporters. He was of the opinion that the service
> provider under quoted, because the range and scope of related services to
> that website was enormous. Like following several officials around to all
> their meetings for a year.
> >>
> >> * Why pay more than once? Petty politics and leaders protecting
> their own little empires. And corruption of course. We have tried doing
> this for 18months?no luck yet. Also the communication between provinces and
> levels of government is ludicrously poor. Do you know what your direct
> neighbours in Environmental Affairs are using? Hopefully Enrico and Nacelle
> will be uploading their Bioregional Plans to the sharing platform when they
> are done. The same platform where you can see the EIAs from
> NEIMS?*shameless plug*
> >>
> >> * Data with known custodians. Have been doing this for
> 12months?it is very very difficult. Reasons: lack of high level regard for
> (spatial) data, capacity and attitudes of ?it isn?t in my job description?.
> Hopefully more OSD posts will change this. Remember that very few
> departments have ever taken responsibility for spatial data ? ever. It is a
> massively foreign concept to them. We are making good progress on this in 2
> provinces. In the Northern Cape we have actually got all the HODs to sign
> MOUs that they will be custodians for their datasets. Appointing the actual
> person/post to an actual dataset is more of a challenge.
> >>
> >> * GIS people in government. Lack of funding usually, or no GIS
> posts on their organograms. Government salaries for GIS people are actually
> much higher than private sector.
> >>
> >> * IT support in government. Cannot comment on something that
> doesn?t exist :)
> >>
> >> Personally I believe that departments would be better served by
> implementing FOSS and spending the saved money on training. Because
> training (regardless of software used) is what people really need. But then
> again?Tswane?why change a system if it is already working for them? And
> their staff have probably already had some decent training.
> >>
> >> Rant over,
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Walter Smit
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Professional GISc Practitioner SA (PGP 1193)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> >> scrubbed...
> >> URL:
> >> <http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/africa/attachments/20130605/21f1e08
> >> 8
> >> /attachment-0001.html>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 13:19:35 +0200
> >> From: Llewellyn Gush <llewellyn at jgdm.gov.za>
> >> To: Africa local chapter discussions <africa at lists.osgeo.org>,
> Walter
> >> Smit <walter.s at sa-solutions.co.za>
> >> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] FW: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues
> >> Message-ID: <51AF1EC7.9080809 at jgdm.gov.za>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> Hello Walt
> >>
> >> Just read your RANT on OsGeo
> >>
> >> Seems you may be changing your allegiance - to ESRI and all that ;-)
> >>
> >> On a serious note the debate around the use of OSS has been doing the
> rounds in Gov now for longer than I care to remember. Nothing yet seems to
> have come of it, the reasons may be many and the will seems to be non
> existent, but one of the major stumbling blocks has been identified by
> yourself and the previous writer. This is not just about GIS though that is
> the primary focus of this forum. The whole debate is much broader and I
> think needs to have the profile raised.
> >>
> >> It is really sad when a person considers themselves "computer literate"
> >> when they can use Word & Excel and then not even do Styles or
> >> formula's more complex than simple addition - they use them as a
> >> glorified typewriter. It is a fact that our educational institutions
> >> are doing a very poor job of skilling students to really be computer
> >> literate. This has come about mostly due to the penetration and
> >> exclusive use of a proprietary vendors solution, which was given to
> >> educational institutions for free (Catch them young and they are
> >> yours forever principle). I fail to understand why it is accepted
> >> that a single vendors solutions should be considered as the only
> >> contribution to a school/university curriculum. The education
> >> authorities carry equal blame in this regard
> >>
> >> Your "low blow" about IT support in Gov :-(
> >>
> >> I like to think that at the institution where I am employed there is a
> least a semblance of support. Suppose there has to be since OSS has been
> almost exclusively implemented in the server space, and what do you know
> "it works" and works well.
> >>
> >> Free State...??? Maybe the reporter did not know the scope of the work,
> but neither did the department that wanted the solution. How many man hours
> can you buy for 40 Million? A hellava Lot!! Way more than the scope of work
> done so far.
> >>
> >> And finally ...........DATA......... I would almost term this the Holy
> Grail of computing. Proprietary vendors, service providers etc are doing a
> really really good job of capturing data and then making it unavailable to
> the client. I have seen more than my fair share of projects that at the end
> the service provider walks away with the IP in the form of the data. I know
> that this is almost always the fault of the project managers, but am afraid
> that it all links back to the above re training and skills and knowledge
> about how to manage the data component.
> >>
> >> YOU ARE SO RIGHT
> >>
> >> Llewellyn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 05/06/2013 12:19, Walter Smit wrote:
> >>> Hi Ray
> >>>
> >>> I have been physically deployed in a national government department
> >>> (DRDLR) for the past 18months and many of your points are very true.
> >>> I could write a whole essay about it, but here are some quick points.
> >>>
> >>> ? Training and inexperienced staff ? I have had to teach
> >>> graduated GIS people (from various universities) what the difference
> >>> is between files and folders. Seems to me that many universities are
> >>> missing the plot completely on how to make young people ready for
> >>> actual work.
> >>>
> >>> ? ?not programmers? ? true, but the FOSS software I have used
> >>> does not require any more programming than over-the-counter suites.
> >>>
> >>> ? Enough PGPs? Correct, there are very few. It is however a
> >>> fallacy that you need to be mentored by a PGP to be able to register
> >>> with Plato (I was not ? and I didn?t get the benefit of the
> >>> Grandfather clause either). I don?t know who started this lie, but
> >>> it seems to stop people from even trying to register.
> >>>
> >>> ? I cannot comment on unscrupulous service providers ?
> >>> solutions should be scalable.
> >>>
> >>> ? Freestate in the limelight ? I actually asked someone with
> >>> more knowledge than the reporters. He was of the opinion that the
> >>> service provider under quoted, because the range and scope of
> >>> related services to that website was enormous. Like following
> >>> several officials around to all their meetings for a year.
> >>>
> >>> ? Why pay more than once? Petty politics and leaders protecting
> >>> their own little empires. And corruption of course. We have tried
> >>> doing this for 18months?no luck yet. Also the communication between
> >>> provinces and levels of government is ludicrously poor. Do you know
> >>> what your direct neighbours in Environmental Affairs are using?
> >>> Hopefully Enrico and Nacelle will be uploading their Bioregional
> >>> Plans to the sharing platform when they are done. The same platform
> >>> where you can see the EIAs from NEIMS?*shameless plug*
> >>>
> >>> ? Data with known custodians. Have been doing this for
> >>> 12months?it is very very difficult. Reasons: lack of high level
> >>> regard for (spatial) data, capacity and attitudes of ?it isn?t in my
> >>> job description?. Hopefully more OSD posts will change this.
> >>> Remember that very few departments have ever taken responsibility for
> spatial data ?
> >>> ever. It is a massively foreign concept to them. We are making good
> >>> progress on this in 2 provinces. In the Northern Cape we have
> >>> actually got all the HODs to sign MOUs that they will be custodians
> >>> for their datasets. Appointing the actual person/post to an actual
> >>> dataset is more of a challenge.
> >>>
> >>> ? GIS people in government. Lack of funding usually, or no GIS
> >>> posts on their organograms. Government salaries for GIS people are
> >>> actually much higher than private sector.
> >>>
> >>> ? IT support in government. Cannot comment on something that
> >>> doesn?t exist J
> >>>
> >>> Personally I believe that departments would be better served by
> >>> implementing FOSS and spending the saved money on training. Because
> >>> training (regardless of software used) is what people really need.
> >>> But then again?Tswane?why change a system if it is already working
> >>> for them? And their staff have probably already had some decent
> training.
> >>>
> >>> Rant over,
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Africa mailing list
> >>> Africa at lists.osgeo.org
> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
> >> --
> >> Llewellyn Gush
> >> Information Technology Manager
> >> Joe Gqabi District Municipality
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> >> scrubbed...
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> >> 1
> >> /attachment.html>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Africa mailing list
> >> Africa at lists.osgeo.org
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
> >>
> >>
> >> End of Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 9
> >> *************************************
> >>
> >> I'm part of the 49Million initiative.
> >> http://www.49Million.co.za
> >>
> >> NB: This Email and its contents are subject to the Eskom Holdings
> >> Limited EMAIL LEGAL NOTICE which can be viewed at
> >> http://www.eskom.co.za/e-mail_legalnotice
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Africa mailing list
> >> Africa at lists.osgeo.org
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
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> >>
> >>
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Africa mailing list
> > Africa at lists.osgeo.org
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
> >
> >
> > End of Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 12
> > **************************************
> >
> > I'm part of the 49Million initiative.
> > http://www.49Million.co.za
> >
> > NB: This Email and its contents are subject to the Eskom Holdings
> > Limited EMAIL LEGAL NOTICE which can be viewed at
> > http://www.eskom.co.za/e-mail_legalnotice
> > _______________________________________________
> > Africa mailing list
> > Africa at lists.osgeo.org
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 14:35:41 +0000
> From: Gerhard Brits <BritsJG at eskom.co.za>
> To: "africa at lists.osgeo.org" <africa at lists.osgeo.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 14
> Message-ID:
> <
> A0ED7999345DF84888B83A99C6EA49B076055FDD at MWPXMB11.elec.eskom.co.za>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> @ Walter Smit
>
> Yes that is the idea of PLATO. But I have not seen the fruit from the way
> PLATO operates. PLATO currently only looks trough n small pipe at the
> broader industry. That is what may statement is about. The pipe should be a
> tunnel. Without people no industry grows and the more barriers we make the
> less and less progress is made and we get no cooperation.
>
> And how does n test on Law and the judgement of someone's degree ensure
> that they are competent, efficient, skilled individual? Everybody can read
> and memorize a book.
>
> @ Ray Schaller
>
> I agree with your statement. Government is a world of empires and the next
> thing to propel someone to the top. Is there GIS resources to manage these
> systems. Well the answer is yes, but does government institutions allow
> these people to develop....NO. And to administrate a system do you need a
> GIS person?? Or just someone that is open minded and willing to explore and
> experiment.
>
> The great thing that is called and Enterprise system. Yes very few
> institutions know what they buy with an enterprise system. But this is
> where we require dynamic multi skilled people that can fill these gaps. The
> common issue is access to information. And this is something that the the
> proprietary people kind off mind easy in the last few years. And something
> FOSS still needs to get.
>
> Maybe what we need is more of our IT/IM decision makers to be part of this
> forum.
>
> This is where FOSS private community should market themselves with the
> right approach.
>
>
> For something different can anybody please tell me where can I get
> training to do some programming/script writing in python. I am looking for
> a general course not GIS specific. Been experimenting with python on
> multiple platforms, got it working now but I want to extend me use. Any
> suggestions??
>
> Regards
> Gerhard Brits
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:
> africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of
> africa-request at lists.osgeo.org
> Sent: 05 June 2013 03:53 PM
> To: africa at lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 14
>
> Send Africa mailing list submissions to
> africa at lists.osgeo.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> africa-request at lists.osgeo.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> africa-owner at lists.osgeo.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of Africa digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues (Ray Schaller)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 15:52:26 +0200
> From: "Ray Schaller" <rschaller at nwpg.gov.za>
> To: "'Africa local chapter discussions'" <africa at lists.osgeo.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues
> Message-ID: <51AF5EBA020000E90015124F at cs1cluster.NWPG.GOV.ZA>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi
>
> A point I didn't get across in my earlier post is that 9 times out 10
> government institutions don't have the capacity to "manage" IS systems
> including GIS. It's fine using GIS to answer a set of questions but at the
> end of the day the answers that were found through analysis are not being
> fed back into the system for decision-making. This is where GIS falls short
> as the decision-makers within government do not have the answers to certain
> questions as these answers lie with the specialist that undertook the
> original analysis. If HODs and MECs were able to readily call up a map to
> see for example "How many rhino were poached over the last year and where
> these rhino were poached" or "where a provinces sensitive areas were and
> how these would affect a potential development" they would start seeing the
> benefit of a GIS and it would be easier to get budgets approved for a total
> GIS solution. We need experienced GIS professionals within government to
> take GIS forward. If GIS is to be taken
> seriously it cannot be left to a university leaver with very little
> experience to motivate for the total solution. From my experience they are
> not taken seriously, especially when you step on the toes of a IT manager
> who comes from a "Communications" background. If these government
> institutions had to employ a GIS professional to manage a GIS
> implementation, is there a sufficient resource base to full these
> positions. We know this is not the case and this has to be addressed.
>
> Government departments are sold Enterprise GIS solutions without properly
> understanding that for these to run effectively and efficiently they need
> to be resourced with skilled staff and the necessary IT infrastructure
> (including adequate bandwidth). Often this does not happen and these total
> solutions never get off the ground. Management end up thinking that the
> money spent on the total GIS solution as being a total waste of funds.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ray
>
> >>> "Walter Smit" <walter.s at sa-solutions.co.za> 05/06/2013 03:02 PM
> >>>
> You answered your own question:
> The role of PLATO. "...in the FOSS environment it to have some
> certification for service providers".
>
> PLATO registration attempts to ensure/prove to clients that the
> professionals they appoint/employ will have a broad skill set and give a
> certain level of service/expertise. If not, they can complain to Plato who
> can then take steps against the professional.
>
> Would be great if most registered professionals came from the FOSS
> community.
>
> Cheers
> W
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> [mailto:africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org]
> On Behalf Of Gerhard Brits
> Sent: 05 June 2013 02:31 PM
> To: africa at lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: [OSGeo Africa] FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues
>
> Hi All
>
> I have been following this discussion trough out the morning.
>
> What does it matter if you have a degree or a semester course in GIS.
> We
> have engineers that operate GIS applications. It is how you use GIS and
> the environment that you implement it that determines what educational
> background you need. In my short career in GIS have seen very few people
> that are competent that have some GIS degree or remote sensing background
> and register with PLATO, but they have no clue what it means to convert
> file types or to write a simple SQL query. So I do not understand even the
> role of PLATO. Does n programmer need to be registered with PLATO? Maybe it
> is just me being bias.
>
> Government is a special place and very few GIS practitioners have the
> ability to influence how the IM/IT landscape is planned. The problem that
> we have in this world. The people that need to use systems do not have the
> ability to find solutions to problems themselves. So most government
> departments have put in large amount of money into developing staff to use
> a software. To change to open source platform causes a large amount of
> money to be spent to retrain people.
>
> I think something we need to employ in the FOSS environment it to have
>
> some
> certification for service providers. So that government/business know that
> who they employee will deliver a professional and reliable service.
> Secondly
> IT/IM decision makers should be educated in what is available in the open
> source stack and how it can be used and the ease of use. GIS users should
> not be retrained but just moved to new platforms.
>
> The way that the open source community is approaching business and
> government is wrong I believe. Do not force something and do not sell
> yourself on the basis that the software is free or very cheap. Sell
> yourself by showing how good it is, how scalable, and how simple it is to
> use.
> What
> type of support is available and how that support will be given to the
> client.
>
> Regards
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> [mailto:africa-bounces at lists.osgeo.org]
> On Behalf Of africa-request at lists.osgeo.org
> Sent: 05 June 2013 01:20 PM
> To: africa at lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 9
>
> Send Africa mailing list submissions to
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. FW: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues (Walter Smit)
> 2. Re: FW: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues (Llewellyn Gush)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 12:19:27 +0200
> From: "Walter Smit" <walter.s at sa-solutions.co.za>
> To: "Africa local chapter discussions" <africa at lists.osgeo.org>
> Subject: [OSGeo Africa] FW: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues
> Message-ID: <004e01ce61d6$2bce9ea0$836bdbe0$@sa-solutions.co.za>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Ray
>
> I have been physically deployed in a national government department
> (DRDLR)
> for the past 18months and many of your points are very true. I could write
> a whole essay about it, but here are some quick points.
>
> * Training and inexperienced staff ? I have had to teach
> graduated
> GIS people (from various universities) what the difference is between
> files and folders. Seems to me that many universities are missing the plot
> completely on how to make young people ready for actual work.
>
> * ?not programmers? ? true, but the FOSS software I have used
> does
> not require any more programming than over-the-counter suites.
>
> * Enough PGPs? Correct, there are very few. It is however a
> fallacy
> that you need to be mentored by a PGP to be able to register with Plato (I
> was not ? and I didn?t get the benefit of the Grandfather clause either). I
> don?t know who started this lie, but it seems to stop people from even
> trying to register.
>
> * I cannot comment on unscrupulous service providers ?
> solutions
> should be scalable.
>
> * Freestate in the limelight ? I actually asked someone with
> more
> knowledge than the reporters. He was of the opinion that the service
> provider under quoted, because the range and scope of related services to
> that website was enormous. Like following several officials around to all
> their meetings for a year.
>
> * Why pay more than once? Petty politics and leaders protecting
> their
> own little empires. And corruption of course. We have tried doing this for
> 18months?no luck yet. Also the communication between provinces and levels
> of government is ludicrously poor. Do you know what your direct neighbours
> in Environmental Affairs are using? Hopefully Enrico and Nacelle will be
> uploading their Bioregional Plans to the sharing platform when they are
> done. The same platform where you can see the EIAs from NEIMS?*shameless
> plug*
>
> * Data with known custodians. Have been doing this for
> 12months?it is
> very very difficult. Reas
> ons: lack of high level regard for (spatial) data, capacity and attitudes
> of ?it isn?t in my job description?. Hopefully more OSD posts will change
> this. Remember that very few departments have ever taken responsibility for
> spatial data ? ever. It is a massively foreign concept to them. We are
> making good progress on this in 2 provinces. In the Northern Cape we have
> actually got all the HODs to sign MOUs that they will be custodians for
> their datasets. Appointing the actual person/post to an actual dataset is
> more of a challenge.
>
> * GIS people in government. Lack of funding usually, or no GIS
> posts
> on their organograms. Government salaries for GIS people are actually much
> higher than private sector.
>
> * IT support in government. Cannot comment on something that
> doesn?t
> exist :)
>
> Personally I believe that departments would be better served by
> implementing FOSS and spending the saved money on training. Because
> training (regardless of software used) is what people really need. But then
> again?Tswane?why change a system if it is already working for them? And
> their staff have probably already had some decent training.
>
> Rant over,
>
>
> Regards
>
> Walter Smit
>
>
>
>
> Professional GISc Practitioner SA (PGP 1193)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 13:19:35 +0200
> From: Llewellyn Gush <llewellyn at jgdm.gov.za>
> To: Africa local chapter discussions <africa at lists.osgeo.org>, Walter
> Smit <walter.s at sa-solutions.co.za>
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] FW: FOSS vs ESRI and other GIS issues
> Message-ID: <51AF1EC7.9080809 at jgdm.gov.za>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello Walt
>
> Just read your RANT on OsGeo
>
> Seems you may be changing your allegiance - to ESRI and all that ;-)
>
> On a serious note the debate around the use of OSS has been doing the
> rounds in Gov now for longer than I care to remember. Nothing yet seems to
> have come of it, the reasons may be many and the will seems to be non
> existent, but one of the major stumbling blocks has been identified by
> yourself and the previous writer. This is not just about GIS though that is
> the primary focus of this forum. The whole debate is much broader and I
> think needs to have the profile raised.
>
> It is really sad when a person considers themselves "computer literate"
> when they can use Word & Excel and then not even do Styles or formula's
> more complex than simple addition - they use them as a glorified typewriter.
> It
> is a fact that our educational institutions are doing a very poor job of
> skilling students to really be computer literate. This has come about
> mostly due to the penetration and exclusive use of a proprietary vendors
> solution, which was given to educational institutions for free (Catch them
> young and they are yours forever principle). I fail to understand why it is
> accepted that a single vendors solutions should be considered as the only
> contribution to a school/university curriculum. The education authorities
> carry equal blame in this regard
>
> Your "low blow" about IT support in Gov :-(
>
> I like to think that at the institution where I am employed there is a
> least a semblance of support. Suppose there has to be since OSS has been
> almost exclusively implemented in the server space, and what do you know
> "it works"
> and works well.
>
> Free State...??? Maybe the reporter did not know the scope of the work,
> but neither did the department that wanted the solution. How many man hours
> can you buy for 40 Million? A hellava Lot!! Way more than the scope of work
> done so far.
>
> And finally ...........DATA......... I would almost term this the Holy
> Grail of computing. Proprietary vendors, service providers etc are doing a
> really really good job of capturing data and then making it unavailable to
> the client. I have seen more than my fair share of proje cts that at the
> end the service provider walks away with the IP in the form of the data. I
> know that this is almost always the fault of the project managers, but am
> afraid that it all links back to the above re training and skills and
> knowledge about how to manage the data component.
>
> YOU ARE SO RIGHT
>
> Llewellyn
>
>
>
>
>
> On 05/06/2013 12:19, Walter Smit wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ray
> >
> > I have been physically deployed in a national government department
> > (DRDLR) for the past 18months and many of your points are very true.
> I
> > could write a whole essay about it, but here are some quick points.
> >
> > ? Training and inexperienced staff ? I have had to teach
> > graduated GIS people (from various universities) what the difference
>
> > is between files and folders. Seems to me that many universities are
>
> > missing the plot completely on how to make young people ready for
> > actual work.
> >
> > ? ?not programmers? ? true, but the FOSS software I have used
> > does not require any more programming than over-the-counter suites.
> >
> > ? Enough PGPs? Correct, there are very few. It is however a
> > fallacy that you need to be mentored by a PGP to be able to register
>
> > with Plato (I was not ? and I didn?t get the benefit of the
> > Grandfather clause either). I don?t know who started this lie, but it
>
> > seems to stop people from even trying to register.
> >
> > ? I cannot comment on unscrupulous service providers ?
> > solutions should be scalable.
> >
> > ? Freestate in the limelight ? I actually asked someone with
> > more knowledge than the reporters. He was of the opinion that the
> > service provider under quoted, because the range and scope of related
>
> > services to that website was enormous. Like following several
> > officials around to all their meetings for a year.
> >
> > ? Why pay more than once? Petty politics and leaders
> protecting
> > their own little empires. And corruption of course. We have tried
> > doing this for 18months?no luck yet. Also the communication between
> > provinces and levels of government is ludicrously poor. Do you know
> > what your direct neighbours in Environmental Affairs are using?
> > Hopefully Enrico and Nacelle will be uploading their Bioregional
> Plans
> > to the sharing platform when they are done. The same platform where
> > you can see the EIAs from NEIMS?*shameless plug*
> >
> > ? Data with known custodians. Have been doing this for
> > 12months?it is very very difficult. Reasons: lack of high level
> regard
> > for (spatial) data, capacity and attitudes of ?it isn?t in my job
> > description?. Hopefully more OSD posts will change this. Remember
> that
> > very few departments have ever taken responsibility for spatial data
> ?
> > ever. It is a massively foreign concept to them. We are making good
> > progress on this in 2 provinces. In the Northern Cape we have
> actually
> > got all the HODs to sign MOUs that they will be custodians for their
>
> > datasets. Appointing the actual person/post to an actual dataset is
> > more of a challenge.
> >
> > ? GIS people in government. Lack of funding usually, or no
> GIS
> > posts on their organograms. Government salaries for GIS people are
> > actually much higher than private sector.
> >
> > ? IT support in government. Cannot comment on something that
> > doesn?t exist J
> >
> > Personally I believe that departments would be better served by
> > implementing FOSS and spending the saved money on training. Because
> > training (regardless of software used) is what people really need.
> But
> > then again?Tswane?why change a system if it is already working for
> > them? And their staff have probably already had some decent
> training.
> >
> > Rant over,
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Africa mailing list
> > Africa at lists.osgeo.org
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa
>
> --
> Llewellyn Gush
> Information Technology Manager
> Joe Gqabi District Municipality
>
>
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>
> End of Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 9
> *************************************
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> I'm part of the 49Million initiative.
> http://www.49Million.co.za
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> End of Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 14
> **************************************
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> I'm part of the 49Million initiative.
> http://www.49Million.co.za
>
> NB: This Email and its contents are subject to the Eskom Holdings Limited
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> Dear All,
>
I am looking for the latest Land Cover / Land Use vector
-(2013-2014) (shaspefile/feature class). I know I can download the same
raster but I am trying to acquire the vector file. Where can I download
the file?
Anyone who can assist with the file, I will appreciate.
> ------------------------------
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> End of Africa Digest, Vol 77, Issue 15
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> I'm part of the 49Million initiative.
> http://www.49Million.co.za
>
> NB: This Email and its contents are subject to the Eskom Holdings Limited
> EMAIL LEGAL NOTICE which can be viewed at
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--
*Regards,*
Mike Dudumele
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