Long-winded Gary and Arnulf dialectic (was <long Email subject chain that no human should ever read>

[Gary Lang]

-----Original Message-----
From: Arnulf Christl (CCGIS) [mailto:arnulf.christl at ccgis.de] 
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:16 PM
To: board at board.osgeo.org
Subject: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re:
[Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] RE: [OSGeo-Board]
German OSGeo Chapter formation, bank account

On Mon, August 21, 2006 20:42, Gary Lang wrote:
> Arnulf,
>
> It is not part of a bias. It is an observation of what actually
happened.
> They asked for help setting this up. Please pay attention to this fact

> - they did not want to do this themselves.
>
> If your theory on how to build OSGreo up is that we should have 
> ignored their requests and just said 'Arnulf says you should just 
> handle this locally', I find that puzzling.

I did for the fraction of a second wonder at whether an Autodesk and
insititutionally funded China Local Chapter is what we want. Which "we"
is that one? How much is it you or Autodesk or China? 

GL> I can say that I went representing OSGeo. Just as I revectored 180K
of MapGuide marketing budget towards OSGeo. We remove MapGuide from our
presentations, and take pains to remove our own marketing from the
literature, etc. This is so transparent that I am almost sure it's
probably not fully appreciated. We're really quite sincere about this.

How much China self organization did we see? I cannot trace most of the
members because they have been entered by a third and not themselves.

GL> It's really their initiative, according to the gentlemen I met with.
They have been using OSGeo software for years. So they wanted to get
involved with the organization that serves as an umbrella for that
software. That's about it. We have people in China that talk to them,
and Autodesk's focus on open source drew those people together with
ours. They asked me to come as a board member. So I went there and
pressed the case for them to join up and start committing some of the
changers they were making back to MapServer, GRASS, PostGIS, OGR, etc.
That's the whole meeting in a nutshell.

...

And just to make sure: I am not offended whenever people do not do what
I say. You are Free to do whatever you please, it is your decision.
:-)

GL> No offense taken. No worries. Likewise, if I do something out of
ignorance of this process I am glad that this community is willing to
help me learn how to do it all correctly.

Sometimes I may seem blunt but this is only out of ignorance.

> I think reality is colliding with your theory here. Perhaps some 
> counterexamples would be helpful instead of repeating that there's a 
> bias without demonstrating that this is so.

Does the above help to shed light on what I want to say?

GL> It might if you gave some counterexamples. As I like to say, there
are arguables and knowables. I just was looking for more of the latter.
I actually think it's a reasonable request, otherwise I have a hard time
evaluating what you are saying, and would prefer to understand it. 

Best regards,
Arnulf.

> The practical concerns w.r.t. the transaction costs you raise are 
> worth considering.
>
> Gary
>
> --- Original Message ---
> From: "Arnulf Christl (CCGIS)" <arnulf.christl at ccgis.de>
> Sent: Mon 8/21/06 2:15 pm
> To: "Gary Lang" <gary.lang at autodesk.com>
> Cc: "board at board.osgeo.org" <board at board.osgeo.org>, 
> "fundraising at fundraising.osgeo.org" 
> <fundraising at fundraising.osgeo.org>,
> "discuss-de at visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org"
> <discuss-de at visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org>
> Subject: [Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board]  Re: [Fundraising]	 Re:
> [OSGeo-Board] Re:      [Fundraising]	 RE: [OSGeo-Board] German OSGeo
> Chapter formation,      bank account
>
>
> On Mon, August 21, 2006 19:35, Gary Lang wrote:
>> Having just personally hooked us up with China and personally worked 
>> on bringing up thr Japan chapter, I am not sure where this bias shows
up.
>>
>> Gary
>
> This way of thinking is part of the bias. Its not that you do 
> something there but that they can do things by themselves. This seems 
> to be incredibly hard to understand for many people.
>
> I assume your personal hooking OSGeo up with China has a solid 
> commercial interest. Which is perfectly fine but different to the kind

> of bias I am talking of. I think that the OSGeo that I see growing is 
> just one level more global than yours. We should share our visions or 
> something like that.
>
> It is a different thing whether you dictate others what you think they

> need (and say "we need") and what they and you and I really need.
>
> This is funny. I did not bother a second to think about whether this 
> request could be any issue at all. I am slightly stunned at the 
> immediate responses. There are basically two reasons why I want to 
> have a separate banking account. The first is that we need to put 
> community money that has come out of the German conferences to good 
> use. We (the FOSSGIS conference
> team) have decided to put this money into OSGeo. The second reason is 
> that every time you shove money accross a border it loses value. The 
> smaller the amount the less it makes sense. So the easiest thing is to

> set up a separate Euro account. If this is a big thing for OSGeo 
> management and results in a costly overhead we will do it differently.

> We can found a small association with a bank account and then apply 
> for an association with OSGeo. Same thing other way round. Would that 
> be better? Either way up I end up on your doorstep sooner or later 
> with some 5000 Euros sitting on an account waiting to be spent for 
> some OSGeo activity. Are we going to make this difficult?
>
>> --- Original Message ---
>> From: "Arnulf Christl" <arnulf.christl at ccgis.de>
>> Sent: Mon 8/21/06 1:24 pm
>> To: "board at board.osgeo.org" <board at board.osgeo.org>
>> Cc: "fundraising at fundraising.osgeo.org"
>> <fundraising at fundraising.osgeo.org>,
>> "discuss-de at visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org"
>> <discuss-de at visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Fundraising]	 Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising]
RE:
>> [OSGeo-Board] German OSGeo Chapter formation, bank account
>>
>> Gary Lang wrote:
>>> I also wonder what the impetus is. It seems like another governance 
>>> issue, wherein local chapters could register their localized 
>>> dissatisfaction with global decisions by funneling funds while 
>>> enjoying the benefits that we provide.
>>>
>>> I can't think of a practical reason for doing this.
>>
>> The practical reason is that Autodesk does not have to ship one set 
>> of posters around the world in all languages but that all languages 
>> can take care of it themselves. We need local money to pay for local 
>> expenses. Else a lot simply ends up in superfluous transactions fees.
>>
>>  > enjoying the benefits that we provide.
>>
>> Who is "we"? Are you
>



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