[OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] RE: [OSGeo-Board] German OSGeo Chapter formation, bank account

[Gary Lang]

I think the most accurate way to look at this is that even if someone
suggested something else we'd vector them to an OSGeo approach. That's
our stated policy internally here right now. I suggest the community
take advantage of this.

BTW I am glad you put the emoticon on your comment because I don't
consider Arnulf to be a pain either. 

That subject line is the result of the mail list software not being
mailman, I believe ;-)

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael P. Gerlek [mailto:mpg at lizardtech.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:35 PM
To: Arnulf Christl (CCGIS); board at board.osgeo.org
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re:
[Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] RE: [OSGeo-Board]
German OSGeo Chapter formation, bank account

(wow, what happened to the subject line? ick.)

I'm all in favor of bottom-up creation of chapters ("grass-roots", to
use the US term) -- but I recognize that sometimes a bit of an incentive
is required to get things started.  Hypothetically speaking, I'd be okay
if Autodesk pushed or somehow influenced the creation of the Chinese
chapter (within reason).  Once started up, if the local members aren't
being productive then the board can take action.

An interesting a question to ask would be this: should local groups be
(1) welcomed into the fold right away or (1) be "incubated" for some
period of time, like code projects, so as to make sure they are "viable"
and "healthy" organizations?  (Maybe this issue has been discussed
elsewhere already, I don't know.)


Aside to Arnulf: feel free to keep on being a pain :-)  A healthy
diversity of opinions is all to the good.

-mpg


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arnulf Christl (CCGIS) [mailto:arnulf.christl at ccgis.de] 
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:16 PM
> To: board at board.osgeo.org
> Subject: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board] 
> Re: [Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re: [Fundraising] RE: 
> [OSGeo-Board] German OSGeo Chapter formation, bank account
> 
> On Mon, August 21, 2006 20:42, Gary Lang wrote:
> > Arnulf,
> >
> > It is not part of a bias. It is an observation of what 
> actually happened.
> > They asked for help setting this up. Please pay attention 
> to this fact -
> > they did not want to do this themselves.
> >
> > If your theory on how to build OSGreo up is that we should 
> have ignored
> > their requests and just said 'Arnulf says you should just 
> handle this
> > locally', I find that puzzling.
> 
> I did for the fraction of a second wonder at whether an Autodesk and
> insititutionally funded China Local Chapter is what we want. 
> Which "we" is
> that one? How much is it you or Autodesk or China? How much China self
> organization did we see? I cannot trace most of the members 
> because they
> have been entered by a third and not themselves.
> 
> One of my aims for OSGeo would be to get people to sign themselves by
> themselves. My aims must not be our aims (define our). Maybe I am
> overdoing it but it is just a very different process to what 
> I experience
> in other open projects. To not phrase it "Arnulf thays this 
> will not do".
> 
> Regarding that part ("Arnulf says"). Whenever I do things I 
> do them as I
> (three times I in a row). Just to make sure that I do not make the
> impression that I speak for all of us: "We". Obviously I sometimes do
> exactly that and hope that nobody checks whether I really 
> asked anybody at
> all. This is cheating. If you catch me cheating then please say so.
> 
> And just to make sure: I am not offended whenever people do 
> not do what I
> say. You are Free to do whatever you please, it is your decision.
> :-)
> Sometimes I may seem blunt but this is only out of ignorance.
> 
> > I think reality is colliding with your theory here. Perhaps some
> > counterexamples would be helpful instead of repeating that 
> there's a bias
> > without demonstrating that this is so.
> 
> Does the above help to shed light on what I want to say?
> 
> Best regards,
> Arnulf.
> 
> > The practical concerns w.r.t. the transaction costs you 
> raise are worth
> > considering.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > --- Original Message ---
> > From: "Arnulf Christl (CCGIS)" <arnulf.christl at ccgis.de>
> > Sent: Mon 8/21/06 2:15 pm
> > To: "Gary Lang" <gary.lang at autodesk.com>
> > Cc: "board at board.osgeo.org" <board at board.osgeo.org>,
> > "fundraising at fundraising.osgeo.org" 
> <fundraising at fundraising.osgeo.org>,
> > "discuss-de at visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org"
> > <discuss-de at visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org>
> > Subject: [Fundraising] Re: [OSGeo-Board]  Re: [Fundraising]	 Re:
> > [OSGeo-Board] Re:      [Fundraising]	 RE: 
> [OSGeo-Board] German OSGeo
> > Chapter formation,      bank account
> >
> >
> > On Mon, August 21, 2006 19:35, Gary Lang wrote:
> >> Having just personally hooked us up with China and 
> personally worked on
> >> bringing up thr Japan chapter, I am not sure where this 
> bias shows up.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >
> > This way of thinking is part of the bias. Its not that you 
> do something
> > there but that they can do things by themselves. This seems to be
> > incredibly hard to understand for many people.
> >
> > I assume your personal hooking OSGeo up with China has a 
> solid commercial
> > interest. Which is perfectly fine but different to the kind 
> of bias I am
> > talking of. I think that the OSGeo that I see growing is 
> just one level
> > more global than yours. We should share our visions or 
> something like
> > that.
> >
> > It is a different thing whether you dictate others what you 
> think they
> > need (and say "we need") and what they and you and I really need.
> >
> > This is funny. I did not bother a second to think about whether this
> > request could be any issue at all. I am slightly stunned at 
> the immediate
> > responses. There are basically two reasons why I want to 
> have a separate
> > banking account. The first is that we need to put community 
> money that has
> > come out of the German conferences to good use. We (the 
> FOSSGIS conference
> > team) have decided to put this money into OSGeo. The second 
> reason is that
> > every time you shove money accross a border it loses value. 
> The smaller
> > the amount the less it makes sense. So the easiest thing is 
> to set up a
> > separate Euro account. If this is a big thing for OSGeo 
> management and
> > results in a costly overhead we will do it differently. We 
> can found a
> > small association with a bank account and then apply for an 
> association
> > with OSGeo. Same thing other way round. Would that be 
> better? Either way
> > up I end up on your doorstep sooner or later with some 5000 
> Euros sitting
> > on an account waiting to be spent for some OSGeo activity. 
> Are we going to
> > make this difficult?
> >
> >> --- Original Message ---
> >> From: "Arnulf Christl" <arnulf.christl at ccgis.de>
> >> Sent: Mon 8/21/06 1:24 pm
> >> To: "board at board.osgeo.org" <board at board.osgeo.org>
> >> Cc: "fundraising at fundraising.osgeo.org"
> >> <fundraising at fundraising.osgeo.org>,
> >> "discuss-de at visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org"
> >> <discuss-de at visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Fundraising]	 Re: [OSGeo-Board] Re: 
> [Fundraising]	 RE:
> >> [OSGeo-Board] German OSGeo Chapter formation, bank account
> >>
> >> Gary Lang wrote:
> >>> I also wonder what the impetus is. It seems like another 
> governance
> >>> issue, wherein local chapters could register their localized
> >>> dissatisfaction with global decisions by funneling funds 
> while enjoying
> >>> the benefits that we provide.
> >>>
> >>> I can't think of a practical reason for doing this.
> >>
> >> The practical reason is that Autodesk does not have to 
> ship one set of
> >> posters around the world in all languages but that all 
> languages can
> >> take care of it themselves. We need local money to pay for local
> >> expenses. Else a lot simply ends up in superfluous 
> transactions fees.
> >>
> >>  > enjoying the benefits that we provide.
> >>
> >> Who is "we"? Are you
> >
> 
> 
> 
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