[OSGeo-Board] FW: shirt logos

Wed Jul 26 08:35:14 PDT 2006

Thanks Allan,

It's actually the reverse situation that concerns me ... someone telling 
OSGeo to cease and desist, simply because they did their due diligence 
and we didn't.

Is that a risk?

Dave

Allan Doyle wrote:
> Since I'm somehow cc'ed on this again, I guess I get to comment :)
> 
> I like Arnulf's analysis and am +1 on it. There are several places where 
> we can slide into corporate-think and completely lose the OSGeo bubble. 
> If people are misusing our logo, our best defense is to make sure 
> everyone knows that their use is inappropriate. We don't have to sue 
> them to do that. We have to make other kinds of noise.
> 
> We're setting out to show that openness is the Way Forward. Does Linus 
> have a trademark on Linux? He does, in fact. Did that prevent 193 other 
> Linux-related registrations at the uspto.gov? No. See also [1]...
> 
> How about some others?
> 
> OpenBSD - no
> NetBSD - yes
> FreeBSD - yes
> Geoserver - yes (Not "ours", Owned by Raytheon...)
> Geotools - yes (Not "ours", owned by Geotools Software Solutions)
> Mapserver - no (was registered to two other companies in the past)
> Mapbender - no
> Apache - 152 registrations with "apache" in them.
> 
> I don't see how it helps or hurts to have the TM or the registration. 
> Sure, if we use the "TM" and later someone else registers it, we can sue 
> them, but it's not clear to me that there's a need.
> 
>     Allan
> 
> [1] http://slashdot.org/articles/99/12/16/1248216.shtml
> 
> On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:03, Dave McIlhagga wrote:
> 
>> If by not doing our due diligence on this -- do we not risk third 
>> parties preventing us from our own freedom to use our own logos and 
>> wording?
>>
>> Also - if OSGeo is being misrepresented by a third party - is that OK? 
>> Are we comfortable with allowing anybody to use OSGeo in any context 
>> they desire? By having adequate legal protection, we at least reserve 
>> the right to take action *if* a real problem should come up.
>>
>> I don't have the answers to these questions as I'm not a lawyer -- but 
>> that's why I think taking legal opinion seriously on this is important.
>>
>> If Trademark registration gives us the freedom to behave in the way we 
>> want to as an organization, is that not a good thing?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> Arnulf Christl wrote:
>>> On Tue, July 25, 2006 15:05, Dave McIlhagga wrote:
>>>> Agreed with Frank - if we can get protection of "OSGeo" and "Open 
>>>> Source
>>>> Geospatial Foundation" - that would be sensible.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>> Against whom or what do we need any protection? What kind of protection
>>> are we really going to get?
>>> ...
>>> Using the "TM" lets the world know that the organization considers its
>>> marks to be proprietary
>>> ...
>>> Oh, funny that this word comes up here. :-) No the word is not bad. 
>>> But we
>>> do not need a small letter to tell the world that we really mean it.
>>> ...
>>> and allows the organization to start to develop some goodwill in the 
>>> marks.
>>> ...
>>> Bear with me doing some 'lost in translation yoga' on 'goodwill'. Using
>>> dict.leo.org it translates into 'Firmenwert' (company value [comm.]),
>>> 'Kulanz' (amiability, fairness, goodwill, kindness, obligingness, fair
>>> dealing [econ.]) or 'Wohlwollen' (benevolence, courtesy, friendliness).
>>> What kind of goodwill is protection by a tiny superior letter (thats
>>> something like a tiny virago) going to give us?
>>> ...
>>> Eventually, if OSGEO obtains a registration for its marks, then you'll
>>> switch to using an "(R)" in superscript.
>>> ...
>>> If you really want to know before switching - and as board member and
>>> voter you should very much feel obliged to - then read through this 
>>> page:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_trademark
>>> In my opinion there are way too many backlinks to copyright, legal
>>> enforcement, commercial property ownership and licensing to make me like
>>> any of it in the context of OSGeo. We are not aiming at being yet 
>>> another
>>> traditional company, we are a foundation.
>>> ...
>>> Very rough estimate of the fees to file one trademark in the U.S.
>>> (including attorney time to prepare the application) are: $1100-1500.
>>> This is just to file the application. Occasionally with some trademark
>>> applications, you have problems with the trademark office objecting to
>>> the mark or a third party opposing the application. If this happens,
>>> additional fees will apply.  Based on what I've seen so far, I don't
>>> have any reason to believe that a third party would oppose "OSGEO" or
>>> the "OPEN SOURCE GEOPSPATIAL FOUNDATION" (our informal Google searches
>>> came up very clean) but that is difficult to know in advance.
>>> ...
>>> OK, so the registration valid for the US only would cost us 1500 bucks
>>> (while we are shy of 300 to pay for lousy shirts...). To get some real
>>> 'protection' we'd need to register with more countries. Real costs only
>>> start when someone somebody actually really starts bugging us by 
>>> stealing
>>> logo or words. The 'protection' by registering the trademark does not 
>>> give
>>> us anything beyond a theoretical right that has to be enforced by 
>>> someone
>>> who will cost us the real money.
>>> Even without any (R)s we have quite a fair chance of being protected:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_trademark#Enforcing_trademark_rights 
>>>
>>> Having said all this bear in mind that I am a bloody layman. I am not
>>> saying that anything that Jennifer Daehler said is not legally 
>>> completely
>>> correct and makes all the sense from the perspective of a large and
>>> well-fortified corporation. I am not saying either that it would not be
>>> perfectly legally correct to do it. It might even feel like common sense
>>> to do it. I do question whether this kind of sense is what we need to
>>> protect OSGeo.org.
>>> Therefore I vote -1 on TM or (C) or (R) superscript in the logo or on 
>>> the
>>> web page. If you like those superior letters then in Borgs name put an
>>> (O)pen there or a (F)ree or a (L)eft.
>>> Best regards,
>>> (still on vacation until 2006.08.04)
>>>> Frank Warmerdam wrote:
>>>>> Gary Lang wrote:
>>>>>> Let's take up your suggestion.
>>>>>> Board: do we want to do this?
>>>>>> +1 from me
>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm +1 on using the (tm) with OSGeo.   If we have board support on the
>>>>> idea, I'll take it up with WebCom to update the web site to use it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On the issue of registration: if the organization would like to 
>>>>>> pursue
>>>>>> it and funds permitting, my suggestion would be to register the word
>>>>>> mark "OSGEO" and (again, funds/desire permitting) the word mark "OPEN
>>>>>> SOURCE GEOSPATIAL FOUNDATION".  I'm less concerned about a logo
>>>>>> registration, especially to the extent that OSGEO or OPEN SOURCE
>>>>>> GEOSPATIAL FOUNDATION are an element of the logo -- I'd recommend 
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> continuing to designate the logo with a "TM" in superscript.
>>>>> My understanding was that "Open Source Geospatial Foundation" is
>>>>> descriptive
>>>>> and so would be difficult to protect as a trademark.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
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> 
> --Allan Doyle
> +1.781.433.2695
> adoyle at eogeo.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
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