[OSGeo-Board] FW: shirt logos
Allan Doyle
adoyle at eogeo.org
Wed Jul 26 08:57:51 PDT 2006
If we get our logo and name out there it will minimize the risk.
Sure, OSGeo can get sued, but what will the other party gain? Not
money. And with more shirts and web pages there are out there, out of
our control, OSGeo can't be made to hunt them all down.
$1800 of shirts is better than $1800 of legal fees.
To answer Frank's desire for a (tm), the only possible path forward
if there is infringement is legal action. If you don't pursue the
action, then you lose your (tm) rights. So how is that different than
not starting with the (tm) rights in the first place? I believe our
strongest position lies in the weakest option.
"We shall go on to the end, we shall wear shirts in France, we shall
wear them on the seas and oceans, we shall wear them with growing
confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our logo,
whatever the cost may be, we shall wear it on the beaches, we shall
wear it on the landing grounds, we shall wear it in the fields and in
the streets, we shall wear it in the hills; we shall never surrender,
and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this logo or a
large part of it were subjugated and misused, then our Empire beyond
the seas, armed and guarded by the hackers, would carry on the
struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its
power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the
logo."
(With apologies to Winston Churchill)
Allan
On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:35, Dave McIlhagga wrote:
> Thanks Allan,
>
> It's actually the reverse situation that concerns me ... someone
> telling OSGeo to cease and desist, simply because they did their
> due diligence and we didn't.
>
> Is that a risk?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> Allan Doyle wrote:
>> Since I'm somehow cc'ed on this again, I guess I get to comment :)
>> I like Arnulf's analysis and am +1 on it. There are several places
>> where we can slide into corporate-think and completely lose the
>> OSGeo bubble. If people are misusing our logo, our best defense is
>> to make sure everyone knows that their use is inappropriate. We
>> don't have to sue them to do that. We have to make other kinds of
>> noise.
>> We're setting out to show that openness is the Way Forward. Does
>> Linus have a trademark on Linux? He does, in fact. Did that
>> prevent 193 other Linux-related registrations at the uspto.gov?
>> No. See also [1]...
>> How about some others?
>> OpenBSD - no
>> NetBSD - yes
>> FreeBSD - yes
>> Geoserver - yes (Not "ours", Owned by Raytheon...)
>> Geotools - yes (Not "ours", owned by Geotools Software Solutions)
>> Mapserver - no (was registered to two other companies in the past)
>> Mapbender - no
>> Apache - 152 registrations with "apache" in them.
>> I don't see how it helps or hurts to have the TM or the
>> registration. Sure, if we use the "TM" and later someone else
>> registers it, we can sue them, but it's not clear to me that
>> there's a need.
>> Allan
>> [1] http://slashdot.org/articles/99/12/16/1248216.shtml
>> On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:03, Dave McIlhagga wrote:
>>> If by not doing our due diligence on this -- do we not risk third
>>> parties preventing us from our own freedom to use our own logos
>>> and wording?
>>>
>>> Also - if OSGeo is being misrepresented by a third party - is
>>> that OK? Are we comfortable with allowing anybody to use OSGeo in
>>> any context they desire? By having adequate legal protection, we
>>> at least reserve the right to take action *if* a real problem
>>> should come up.
>>>
>>> I don't have the answers to these questions as I'm not a lawyer
>>> -- but that's why I think taking legal opinion seriously on this
>>> is important.
>>>
>>> If Trademark registration gives us the freedom to behave in the
>>> way we want to as an organization, is that not a good thing?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arnulf Christl wrote:
>>>> On Tue, July 25, 2006 15:05, Dave McIlhagga wrote:
>>>>> Agreed with Frank - if we can get protection of "OSGeo" and
>>>>> "Open Source
>>>>> Geospatial Foundation" - that would be sensible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>> Against whom or what do we need any protection? What kind of
>>>> protection
>>>> are we really going to get?
>>>> ...
>>>> Using the "TM" lets the world know that the organization
>>>> considers its
>>>> marks to be proprietary
>>>> ...
>>>> Oh, funny that this word comes up here. :-) No the word is not
>>>> bad. But we
>>>> do not need a small letter to tell the world that we really mean
>>>> it.
>>>> ...
>>>> and allows the organization to start to develop some goodwill in
>>>> the marks.
>>>> ...
>>>> Bear with me doing some 'lost in translation yoga' on
>>>> 'goodwill'. Using
>>>> dict.leo.org it translates into 'Firmenwert' (company value
>>>> [comm.]),
>>>> 'Kulanz' (amiability, fairness, goodwill, kindness,
>>>> obligingness, fair
>>>> dealing [econ.]) or 'Wohlwollen' (benevolence, courtesy,
>>>> friendliness).
>>>> What kind of goodwill is protection by a tiny superior letter
>>>> (thats
>>>> something like a tiny virago) going to give us?
>>>> ...
>>>> Eventually, if OSGEO obtains a registration for its marks, then
>>>> you'll
>>>> switch to using an "(R)" in superscript.
>>>> ...
>>>> If you really want to know before switching - and as board
>>>> member and
>>>> voter you should very much feel obliged to - then read through
>>>> this page:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_trademark
>>>> In my opinion there are way too many backlinks to copyright, legal
>>>> enforcement, commercial property ownership and licensing to make
>>>> me like
>>>> any of it in the context of OSGeo. We are not aiming at being
>>>> yet another
>>>> traditional company, we are a foundation.
>>>> ...
>>>> Very rough estimate of the fees to file one trademark in the U.S.
>>>> (including attorney time to prepare the application) are:
>>>> $1100-1500.
>>>> This is just to file the application. Occasionally with some
>>>> trademark
>>>> applications, you have problems with the trademark office
>>>> objecting to
>>>> the mark or a third party opposing the application. If this
>>>> happens,
>>>> additional fees will apply. Based on what I've seen so far, I
>>>> don't
>>>> have any reason to believe that a third party would oppose
>>>> "OSGEO" or
>>>> the "OPEN SOURCE GEOPSPATIAL FOUNDATION" (our informal Google
>>>> searches
>>>> came up very clean) but that is difficult to know in advance.
>>>> ...
>>>> OK, so the registration valid for the US only would cost us 1500
>>>> bucks
>>>> (while we are shy of 300 to pay for lousy shirts...). To get
>>>> some real
>>>> 'protection' we'd need to register with more countries. Real
>>>> costs only
>>>> start when someone somebody actually really starts bugging us by
>>>> stealing
>>>> logo or words. The 'protection' by registering the trademark
>>>> does not give
>>>> us anything beyond a theoretical right that has to be enforced
>>>> by someone
>>>> who will cost us the real money.
>>>> Even without any (R)s we have quite a fair chance of being
>>>> protected:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>>> Registered_trademark#Enforcing_trademark_rights
>>>> Having said all this bear in mind that I am a bloody layman. I
>>>> am not
>>>> saying that anything that Jennifer Daehler said is not legally
>>>> completely
>>>> correct and makes all the sense from the perspective of a large and
>>>> well-fortified corporation. I am not saying either that it would
>>>> not be
>>>> perfectly legally correct to do it. It might even feel like
>>>> common sense
>>>> to do it. I do question whether this kind of sense is what we
>>>> need to
>>>> protect OSGeo.org.
>>>> Therefore I vote -1 on TM or (C) or (R) superscript in the logo
>>>> or on the
>>>> web page. If you like those superior letters then in Borgs name
>>>> put an
>>>> (O)pen there or a (F)ree or a (L)eft.
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> (still on vacation until 2006.08.04)
>>>>> Frank Warmerdam wrote:
>>>>>> Gary Lang wrote:
>>>>>>> Let's take up your suggestion.
>>>>>>> Board: do we want to do this?
>>>>>>> +1 from me
>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm +1 on using the (tm) with OSGeo. If we have board
>>>>>> support on the
>>>>>> idea, I'll take it up with WebCom to update the web site to
>>>>>> use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the issue of registration: if the organization would like
>>>>>>> to pursue
>>>>>>> it and funds permitting, my suggestion would be to register
>>>>>>> the word
>>>>>>> mark "OSGEO" and (again, funds/desire permitting) the word
>>>>>>> mark "OPEN
>>>>>>> SOURCE GEOSPATIAL FOUNDATION". I'm less concerned about a logo
>>>>>>> registration, especially to the extent that OSGEO or OPEN SOURCE
>>>>>>> GEOSPATIAL FOUNDATION are an element of the logo -- I'd
>>>>>>> recommend just
>>>>>>> continuing to designate the logo with a "TM" in superscript.
>>>>>> My understanding was that "Open Source Geospatial Foundation" is
>>>>>> descriptive
>>>>>> and so would be difficult to protect as a trademark.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>> --Allan Doyle
>> +1.781.433.2695
>> adoyle at eogeo.org
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Allan Doyle
+1.781.433.2695
adoyle at eogeo.org
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