[OSGeo-Board] FW: shirt logos

[Allan Doyle]

On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:44, Michael P. Gerlek wrote:

> Just a point to consider:
>
> I think I'm partially responsible for bringing up this issue again,
> because a couple weeks ago an individual asked me if he could print  
> up a
> bunch of shirts with the OSGeo logo, specifically so that he could  
> sell
> them at a profit to make money for his local open source geo
> organization.
>
> I brought this to the board's attention because I was personally
> surprised by this move.  Prior to receiving that email, I would have
> claimed such a situation was only a theoretical worst-case.

So put up some guidelines on the web site. Any profits for the use of  
the logo should be shared in some percentage as a donation to OSGeo.

A (tm) won't stop hard core counterfeiters. People who are nice  
enough to ask are likely to be nice enough to pitch in.

	Allan

>
> -mpg
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Allan Doyle [mailto:adoyle at eogeo.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 8:29 AM
>> To: Dave McIlhagga
>> Cc: Arnulf Christl; board at board.osgeo.org; Jennifer Daehler;
>> rich at richsteele.org; Michael P. Gerlek
>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Board] FW: shirt logos
>>
>> Since I'm somehow cc'ed on this again, I guess I get to comment :)
>>
>> I like Arnulf's analysis and am +1 on it. There are several places
>> where we can slide into corporate-think and completely lose
>> the OSGeo
>> bubble. If people are misusing our logo, our best defense is to make
>> sure everyone knows that their use is inappropriate. We don't
>> have to
>> sue them to do that. We have to make other kinds of noise.
>>
>> We're setting out to show that openness is the Way Forward. Does
>> Linus have a trademark on Linux? He does, in fact. Did that prevent
>> 193 other Linux-related registrations at the uspto.gov? No. See also
>> [1]...
>>
>> How about some others?
>>
>> OpenBSD - no
>> NetBSD - yes
>> FreeBSD - yes
>> Geoserver - yes (Not "ours", Owned by Raytheon...)
>> Geotools - yes (Not "ours", owned by Geotools Software Solutions)
>> Mapserver - no (was registered to two other companies in the past)
>> Mapbender - no
>> Apache - 152 registrations with "apache" in them.
>>
>> I don't see how it helps or hurts to have the TM or the
>> registration.
>> Sure, if we use the "TM" and later someone else registers it, we can
>> sue them, but it's not clear to me that there's a need.
>>
>> 	Allan
>>
>> [1] http://slashdot.org/articles/99/12/16/1248216.shtml
>>
>> On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:03, Dave McIlhagga wrote:
>>
>>> If by not doing our due diligence on this -- do we not risk third
>>> parties preventing us from our own freedom to use our own
>> logos and
>>> wording?
>>>
>>> Also - if OSGeo is being misrepresented by a third party - is that
>>> OK? Are we comfortable with allowing anybody to use OSGeo in any
>>> context they desire? By having adequate legal protection, we at
>>> least reserve the right to take action *if* a real problem should
>>> come up.
>>>
>>> I don't have the answers to these questions as I'm not a lawyer --
>>> but that's why I think taking legal opinion seriously on this is
>>> important.
>>>
>>> If Trademark registration gives us the freedom to behave in
>> the way
>>> we want to as an organization, is that not a good thing?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arnulf Christl wrote:
>>>> On Tue, July 25, 2006 15:05, Dave McIlhagga wrote:
>>>>> Agreed with Frank - if we can get protection of "OSGeo"
>> and "Open
>>>>> Source
>>>>> Geospatial Foundation" - that would be sensible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>> Against whom or what do we need any protection? What kind of
>>>> protection
>>>> are we really going to get?
>>>> ...
>>>> Using the "TM" lets the world know that the organization
>> considers
>>>> its
>>>> marks to be proprietary
>>>> ...
>>>> Oh, funny that this word comes up here. :-) No the word is not
>>>> bad. But we
>>>> do not need a small letter to tell the world that we
>> really mean it.
>>>> ...
>>>> and allows the organization to start to develop some goodwill in
>>>> the marks.
>>>> ...
>>>> Bear with me doing some 'lost in translation yoga' on 'goodwill'.
>>>> Using
>>>> dict.leo.org it translates into 'Firmenwert' (company
>> value [comm.]),
>>>> 'Kulanz' (amiability, fairness, goodwill, kindness, obligingness,
>>>> fair
>>>> dealing [econ.]) or 'Wohlwollen' (benevolence, courtesy,
>>>> friendliness).
>>>> What kind of goodwill is protection by a tiny superior
>> letter (thats
>>>> something like a tiny virago) going to give us?
>>>> ...
>>>> Eventually, if OSGEO obtains a registration for its marks, then
>>>> you'll
>>>> switch to using an "(R)" in superscript.
>>>> ...
>>>> If you really want to know before switching - and as board
>> member and
>>>> voter you should very much feel obliged to - then read through
>>>> this page:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_trademark
>>>> In my opinion there are way too many backlinks to copyright, legal
>>>> enforcement, commercial property ownership and licensing to make
>>>> me like
>>>> any of it in the context of OSGeo. We are not aiming at being yet
>>>> another
>>>> traditional company, we are a foundation.
>>>> ...
>>>> Very rough estimate of the fees to file one trademark in the U.S.
>>>> (including attorney time to prepare the application) are:
>> $1100-1500.
>>>> This is just to file the application. Occasionally with some
>>>> trademark
>>>> applications, you have problems with the trademark office
>>>> objecting to
>>>> the mark or a third party opposing the application. If
>> this happens,
>>>> additional fees will apply.  Based on what I've seen so
>> far, I don't
>>>> have any reason to believe that a third party would oppose
>> "OSGEO" or
>>>> the "OPEN SOURCE GEOPSPATIAL FOUNDATION" (our informal Google
>>>> searches
>>>> came up very clean) but that is difficult to know in advance.
>>>> ...
>>>> OK, so the registration valid for the US only would cost us 1500
>>>> bucks
>>>> (while we are shy of 300 to pay for lousy shirts...). To get some
>>>> real
>>>> 'protection' we'd need to register with more countries.
>> Real costs
>>>> only
>>>> start when someone somebody actually really starts bugging us by
>>>> stealing
>>>> logo or words. The 'protection' by registering the trademark does
>>>> not give
>>>> us anything beyond a theoretical right that has to be enforced by
>>>> someone
>>>> who will cost us the real money.
>>>> Even without any (R)s we have quite a fair chance of being
>> protected:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>>> Registered_trademark#Enforcing_trademark_rights
>>>> Having said all this bear in mind that I am a bloody
>> layman. I am not
>>>> saying that anything that Jennifer Daehler said is not legally
>>>> completely
>>>> correct and makes all the sense from the perspective of a large and
>>>> well-fortified corporation. I am not saying either that it would
>>>> not be
>>>> perfectly legally correct to do it. It might even feel
>> like common
>>>> sense
>>>> to do it. I do question whether this kind of sense is what
>> we need to
>>>> protect OSGeo.org.
>>>> Therefore I vote -1 on TM or (C) or (R) superscript in the
>> logo or
>>>> on the
>>>> web page. If you like those superior letters then in Borgs name
>>>> put an
>>>> (O)pen there or a (F)ree or a (L)eft.
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> (still on vacation until 2006.08.04)
>>>>> Frank Warmerdam wrote:
>>>>>> Gary Lang wrote:
>>>>>>> Let's take up your suggestion.
>>>>>>> Board: do we want to do this?
>>>>>>> +1 from me
>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm +1 on using the (tm) with OSGeo.   If we have board support
>>>>>> on the
>>>>>> idea, I'll take it up with WebCom to update the web site
>> to use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the issue of registration: if the organization would
>> like to
>>>>>>> pursue
>>>>>>> it and funds permitting, my suggestion would be to
>> register the
>>>>>>> word
>>>>>>> mark "OSGEO" and (again, funds/desire permitting) the
>> word mark
>>>>>>> "OPEN
>>>>>>> SOURCE GEOSPATIAL FOUNDATION".  I'm less concerned about a logo
>>>>>>> registration, especially to the extent that OSGEO or OPEN SOURCE
>>>>>>> GEOSPATIAL FOUNDATION are an element of the logo -- I'd
>>>>>>> recommend just
>>>>>>> continuing to designate the logo with a "TM" in superscript.
>>>>>> My understanding was that "Open Source Geospatial Foundation" is
>>>>>> descriptive
>>>>>> and so would be difficult to protect as a trademark.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>> -- 
>> Allan Doyle
>> +1.781.433.2695
>> adoyle at eogeo.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>

-- 
Allan Doyle
+1.781.433.2695
adoyle at eogeo.org