[Board] Please review: Open Letter asking to avoid format fragmentation in LiDAR standards
Jeff McKenna
jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
Wed Apr 22 04:52:20 PDT 2015
Cameron, I personally don't appreciate supporting a single person's
agenda, and was shocked yesterday to see strong quotes by you all over
the media before the agreed time to release.
I stand by my reaction.
-jeff
On 2015-04-21 8:59 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> In answer to your questions about my motives and why I was quoted in media:
>
> I feel passionately about the importance of Open Standards. I believe
> they are fundamental to interoperability, go hand-in-glove with Open
> Source.
> When I watched the heated discussing about the injustice being applied
> to LiDAR standards, as documented by Martin, I offered to help. I
> helped in the writing and reviewing an Open Letter, along with Suchith,
> Patrick and Martin. One of the things that Martin mentioned was that he
> was having difficulty getting traction in the mass media. I have
> contacts in the Australian IT media, and offered to make use of those
> to get the story out.
>
> I think you are asking why I was quoted in the media and not you?
> 1. I contacted them.
> 2. I helped write the Open Letter [1] and worked with people who
> provided feedback. I also wrote follow up blog post [2], which makes it
> easy for an author to quote someone.
> 3. I'm local (in Australia) and local media like to quote locals.
> 4. Martin was quoted as well.
> 5. Jeff, you might not have been contacted because I pointed the
> Australian IT author to the board email list, where you might remember
> the board was slow (in media time) to respond to a request for board
> support for the Open Letter, and when you first responded, you were
> initially hesitant about supporting the Open Letter.
>
> I'm a little hurt and disappointed that the OSGeo President would find
> it "disturbing" that a local OSGeo member was quoted in local media. I
> feel like local efforts are not being supported?
>
> [1] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LIDAR_Format_Letter
> [2]
> http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com.au/2015/04/esris-claim-at-being-good-standards.html
>
>
>
> On 22/04/2015 12:43 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>> Did you give the media a heads-up on this? I'm really not
>> understanding where all this pressure is coming from (you would think
>> I would be getting requests directly, nope none). Maybe you can
>> explain how all that part has happened.
>>
>> (Martin's role in this is clear, but your own personal role in this is
>> unclear to me, maybe you can shed some light on this here for everyone)
>>
>> -jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2015-04-21 11:38 AM, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>> That said Cameron, I would like to know why media outlets are contacting
>>> you directly regarding this. I just read "Australian software developer
>>> Cameron Shorter, the local chair of the not-for-profit OSGeo Foundation,
>>> says...". Is this because you are blogging about this issue? This part
>>> of it all is a little disturbing.
>>>
>>>
>>> -jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2015-04-20 9:37 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>> Thank you Jeff.
>>>> I'm hopeful other board members will also express their opinions and
>>>> vote on the motion as well.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Cameron.
>>>>
>>>> On 21/04/2015 9:32 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>>> Ok my last message on this; on doing some more thinking, it is as
>>>>> Cameron said too late to change how the letter is written. So it
>>>>> tackles Esri, OGC, and ASPRS head-on (I guess this is why myself and
>>>>> others were voted onto the OSGeo Board). I can see Martin's face
>>>>> looking at me and hear him saying with a smirk 'come on'. I am
>>>>> therefore +1, after saying all that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for speaking up so loudly.
>>>>>
>>>>> And thanks to Martin for all his thankless work. Special thanks to
>>>>> mpg for his private thoughts to the OSGeo Board today as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cameron thanks to you also, for letting me speak on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good night everyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2015-04-20 7:51 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>>>> I think you used the correct term, where an open letter could be made
>>>>>> using that term "owner" or "developer" and avoid pointing direct
>>>>>> fingers, and then for more background information link to the
>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>> explanation by Martin ("clone wars" blog post). As it is now the
>>>>>> letter
>>>>>> attacks Esri directly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess I could be the only one who feels this way, in which case I
>>>>>> would not hold the letter back (I am only one person in this huge
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> community). So don't worry I'm not planning to hold it back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> K I'm being quiet now ha :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2015-04-20 6:18 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>>> Do other members of the board share Jeff's opinion? Please speak up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm in an awkward situation. We have 70+ OSGeo community members who
>>>>>>> have signed this Open Letter, expecting it to be delivered as we
>>>>>>> said we
>>>>>>> would.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you wish to see the background (story) moved to another page, eg
>>>>>>> blog, we could do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jeff, I understand that you don’t want the letter delivered
>>>>>>> unless the
>>>>>>> word “Esri” removed? I’d argue to the they thing needing changing is
>>>>>>> that the owner of “Optimized LAS” publish as an open format. So the
>>>>>>> letter needs to be delivered to Esri. Is this a point you'd be
>>>>>>> prepared
>>>>>>> to accept being included in an Open Letter?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Cameron
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 21/04/2015 3:52 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I personally feel topics like "the story" as you mention are for
>>>>>>>> places like blogs, which I believe Martin documented very well
>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>> (I've retweeted his post months ago). What I see here on this wiki
>>>>>>>> page is the story re-written again. I have a difficult time though
>>>>>>>> officially supporting this story with my OSGeo Board hat on
>>>>>>>> though, as
>>>>>>>> it doesn't add anything more (throws salt on the wound, so to
>>>>>>>> speak).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like to see the OSGeo Board in fact support a request for
>>>>>>>> LiDAR standards, and leave out this unfortunate "story".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2015-04-20 12:35 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>>>>>>>> We did address specific comments (similar to yours) during the
>>>>>>>>> request
>>>>>>>>> for comment phase, before we asked for signatures.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Now that we have asked for signatures (for the last week or
>>>>>>>>> so), it
>>>>>>>>> is inappropriate of us to change the text that people have
>>>>>>>>> signed up
>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. I do acknowledge your concerns about directly singling out one
>>>>>>>>> vendor, and I initially tried writing the story without mentioning
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, this one vendor is so central to the format
>>>>>>>>> fragmentation
>>>>>>>>> story that it is difficult to tell the story and be specific about
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> request without mentioning them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3. I'm also mindful that the story has already been breaking on
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> spatial media for a while now (one of the features of open
>>>>>>>>> communication), and mass media is likely to break the story soon -
>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>> estimate within 12 to 48 hours. In that timeframe, I personally
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> have the time for a rewrite.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So unfortunately, for these 3 reasons, I think it inappropriate to
>>>>>>>>> rewrite this Open Letter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeff, I think you have made your vote clear, but can you please
>>>>>>>>> officially vote +1, +0, 0, -0, -1 to these 2 proposals. Can the
>>>>>>>>> rest of
>>>>>>>>> the board please do so also as we need to decide whether the mass
>>>>>>>>> media
>>>>>>>>> report on this story with or without OSGeo board endorsement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards, Cameron
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 21/04/2015 12:59 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In terms of my own feedback to your letter (I cannot speak for
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> entire OSGeo Board), I would prefer to remove any reference to
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> specific company or institution (such as Esri), and focus the
>>>>>>>>>> goal of
>>>>>>>>>> the letter (as opposed to a flame war) on the needs for standards
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> LiDAR data. As this page is written now, it is not a surprise
>>>>>>>>>> to me
>>>>>>>>>> that media outlets are drooling over this letter. But what good
>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> come out of that, other than upsetting a large geospatial
>>>>>>>>>> vendor in
>>>>>>>>>> our ecosystem?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I have spoken to Martin about this face-to-face, and
>>>>>>>>>> I was
>>>>>>>>>> at a presentation he did on this exact topic at FOSS4G-Asia in
>>>>>>>>>> December (I moderated his session, small world sometimes isn't
>>>>>>>>>> it); it
>>>>>>>>>> is a frustrating situation that he was put through, and I support
>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>> though this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, since you are asking the OSGeo Board now, I cannot support
>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>> an attack against one organization formally.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Short story: can you reword your wiki/letter to focus on
>>>>>>>>>> standards for
>>>>>>>>>> the LiDAR format, and not attack one organization?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-04-20 11:28 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> As Bart mentioned,
>>>>>>>>>>> * After initially being written, the letter was sent to OSGeo
>>>>>>>>>>> standards
>>>>>>>>>>> list, asking for review.
>>>>>>>>>>> * Suchith sent to OGC TC-Discuss list for review, and ESRI
>>>>>>>>>>> responded.
>>>>>>>>>>> * After ~ 1 week for review, the letter was forwarded to OSGeo
>>>>>>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>>>>>>> and a few others, asking for signatures (we have ~ 70
>>>>>>>>>>> signatures,
>>>>>>>>>>> growing every day)
>>>>>>>>>>> * As per this email thread below, I've asked OSGeo board's
>>>>>>>>>>> approval to
>>>>>>>>>>> officially present this letter.
>>>>>>>>>>> * Today I've had inquiries from mass media. I've asked them to
>>>>>>>>>>> hold
>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>>> on breaking the story until the board gives approval to
>>>>>>>>>>> officially
>>>>>>>>>>> present the letter, which will add extra weight to the letter.
>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>>> didn't publish today, but may publish in 12 to 48 hours. (Media
>>>>>>>>>>> organisations have a strong desire to be the first to publish).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So now the board has had time to consider, can you please all
>>>>>>>>>>> vote on
>>>>>>>>>>> following 2 proposals:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I request the board support an OSGeo Community developed Open
>>>>>>>>>>> Letter aimed at protecting open LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LIDAR_Format_Letter
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Proposal 1: The OSGeo Board agree to include the
>>>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>>> statement (or similar wording) into the letter:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> = Cover Letter from the OSGeo Board =
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The board of the [http://osgeo.org <http://osgeo.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>> Source Geospatial Foundation] (OSGeo) is presenting this
>>>>>>>>>>> letter to the OGC, ESRI and ASPRS. The letter highlights
>>>>>>>>>>> concerns about fragmentation in LiDAR standards from
>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>> people within the OSGeo community. As always, if
>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>> anything the OSGeo board can do to help, then please
>>>>>>>>>>> let us
>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Signed: <OSGeo Board Members>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Proposal 2:
>>>>>>>>>>> Once the letter has completed the signature phase, the
>>>>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>>>>> be emailed from the OSGeo President to key people within
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>> organisations:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Reichardt <mreichardt AT opengeospatial.org
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>>, OSGeo President
>>>>>>>>>>> David Danko <DDanko AT esri.com <http://esri.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://esri.com>>, ESRI's
>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Consultant for GIS Standards
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen D. DeGloria < sdd4 AT cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>>, President of the ASPRS
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/04/2015 10:50 pm, Bart van den Eijnden wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> this was sent to discuss 1 week ago [1]. It has also been
>>>>>>>>>>>> sent to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> OGC TC-Discuss list where Esri has even responded.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-April/014137.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bart
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2015, at 14:44, Jeff McKenna
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be good Maxi, as my concern is getting community
>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback
>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the Board reviews such a request.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has this letter been sent yet to the general OSGeo
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> review? (the Discuss list) I think it is great that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> group reviewed it, maybe now it is ready for the general OSGeo
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-04-20 6:18 AM, Massimiliano Cannata wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thare are interesting discussions running on the italian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would be nice if someone could wrap-up a short summary of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> points.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could do it in the next days if none is available.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-20 10:30 GMT+02:00 Jachym Cepicky
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jachym.cepicky at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jachym.cepicky at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jachym.cepicky at gmail.com>>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm fine with that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pá 17. 4. 2015 v 8:56 odesílatel Bart van den Eijnden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <bartvde at osgis.nl <mailto:bartvde at osgis.nl>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:bartvde at osgis.nl>> napsal:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello board,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do people still need time to comment on the letter or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call for a motion on this?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2015, at 13:52, Cameron Shorter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <cameron.shorter at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:cameron.shorter at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:cameron.shorter at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi OSGeo Board,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I request the board support an OSGeo Community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Letter aimed at protecting open LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LIDAR_Format_Letter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Proposal 1: The OSGeo Board agree to include the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statement (or similar wording) into the letter:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Cover Letter from the OSGeo Board =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The board of the [http://osgeo.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://osgeo.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Source Geospatial Foundation] (OSGeo) is presenting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> letter to the OGC, ESRI and ASPRS. The letter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highlights
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concerns about fragmentation in LiDAR standards from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people within the OSGeo community. As always, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything the OSGeo board can do to help, then please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let us
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Signed: <OSGeo Board Members>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Proposal 2:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once the letter has completed the signature phase,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be emailed from the OSGeo President to key people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organisations:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Reichardt <mreichardt AT opengeospatial.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>>, OSGeo President
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Danko <DDanko AT esri.com <http://esri.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://esri.com>>, ESRI's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Consultant for GIS Standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen D. DeGloria < sdd4 AT cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>>, President of the ASPRS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2015 12:14 pm, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A number of us have been collaboratively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developing an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Letter asking key stakeholders to avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragmentation in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It starts:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /We, the undersigned, are concerned that the current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interoperability between LiDAR applications, through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the open "LAS" format, is being threatened by ESRI's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduction and promotion of an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Optimized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAS"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proprietary format. This is of concern since the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragmentation of the LAS format will lead to reduced
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interoperability between applications and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organisations, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduce vendor lock-in./
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could all interested please:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Review and provide feedback to this standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If you agree with the letter, please add your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Signed" section
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LISAsoft
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000, Wwww.lisasoft.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://Wwww.lisasoft.com> <http://www.lisasoft.com/>, F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +61 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9009 5099
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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