[Board] feedback on Loomio

Steven Feldman shfeldman at gmail.com
Thu Sep 15 01:30:37 PDT 2016 

Surely there are circumstances where the board needs to have a private discussion? We elect the board and should trust them to judge when a discussion should take place “off list"

I thought the board had a private mail group for those discussions? If that is the case, is there a difference between that list and loomio?

All votes should be published so that the community knows what has been decided. The current +1,0,-1 to multiple motions across a long string of emails can’t be the best way of voting and communicating those votes.

______
Steven


> On 15 Sep 2016, at 05:18, board-request at lists.osgeo.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. feedback on Loomio (Jeff McKenna)
>   2. Re: feedback on Loomio (Vincent Picavet (ml))
>   3. Re: feedback on Loomio (Helena Mitasova)
>   4. Re: feedback on Loomio (Venkatesh Raghavan)
> 
> From: Jeff McKenna <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>
> Subject: [Board] feedback on Loomio
> Date: 14 September 2016 at 21:05:24 BST
> To: OSGeo Board <board at lists.osgeo.org>
> 
> 
> Hi OSGeo Board,
> 
> I would like to give some outside feedback, or from someone who was on the board for almost 7 years.  I believe the board is examining Loomio for a few weeks, and I just want to provide some initial feedback.
> 
> I know, I must sit back and let technology and innovation and people grow, in OSGeo, but I was surprised to notice today that I cannot receive email notifications and easily follow and join, what has always been Open discussions for voting at the OSGeo Board level, any longer because voting is now managed in a closed Loomio system.
> 
> Background
> ----------
> 
> Before anyone gets upset at me for being so close-minded to change, I should say that I have been involved in the formation of the QGIS.ORG legal entity since its beginning, and I fully support that organization (Tim and others invited me to edit their initial documents and provide input on its formation).  I do realize that Loomio is being successfully used by the QGIS.ORG Board.
> 
> 
> Discussion
> ----------
> 
> The Loomio "OSGeo Board" group requires an account, and also surprisingly it requires you to apply to 'join' the group discussion. Yes, I am aware that I can visibly see the discussion by clicking on the Loomio discussion link; but remember, OSGeo Board discussions are done in the open and have always been very easy to follow through this mailing list.  Now though, with Loomio, important discussions are occurring on a system that only 9 people (the board members) have privileges to both post a comment or receive email notifications.  I actually assumed Loomio would somehow be used to log voting, but all voting would still be displayed on the OSGeo Board list, and all discussions would occur on the Board list.
> 
> Sure, Loomio offers nice charts and fancy tools, and votes are logged, but since discussion is closed that really defeats the purpose.
> 
> Again, it might be great for the QGIS.ORG entity, but for OSGeo where we have always tried to be so open and transparent, Loomio appears to me to be a sudden change in the foundation's thinking.
> 
> Conclusion
> ----------
> 
> I believe the OSGeo Board is still experimenting with Loomio, but I wanted to give you my thoughts today, as I was surprised to find how difficult it is to follow voting discussions now.
> 
> Maybe there is a way or a hook so that all discussions and messages on Loomio are posted right away to this mailing list, so Loomio can be used to record voting but have discussions still occur in the open.   Not sure.
> 
> I just think my impressions might be useful, as I tried to follow today's discussions.  (yes, still do, always have, on each of OSGeo's 200-ish mailing lists ha)
> 
> thanks,
> 
> -jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Vincent Picavet (ml)" <vincent.ml at oslandia.com>
> Subject: Re: [Board] feedback on Loomio
> Date: 14 September 2016 at 21:33:40 BST
> To: Jeff McKenna <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>, OSGeo Board <board at lists.osgeo.org>
> Reply-To: vincent.ml at oslandia.com
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 14/09/2016 22:05, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> [..]
>> I know, I must sit back and let technology and innovation and people
>> grow, in OSGeo, but I was surprised to notice today that I cannot
>> receive email notifications and easily follow and join, what has always
>> been Open discussions for voting at the OSGeo Board level, any longer
>> because voting is now managed in a closed Loomio system.
> 
> I may start to be an old guy, but I do feel the same, and have been
> feeling the same with QGIS.ORG way of doing things too.
> 
> Thanks for raising the point.
> Vincent
> 
> 
>> 
>> Background
>> ----------
>> 
>> Before anyone gets upset at me for being so close-minded to change, I
>> should say that I have been involved in the formation of the QGIS.ORG
>> legal entity since its beginning, and I fully support that organization
>> (Tim and others invited me to edit their initial documents and provide
>> input on its formation).  I do realize that Loomio is being successfully
>> used by the QGIS.ORG Board.
>> 
>> 
>> Discussion
>> ----------
>> 
>> The Loomio "OSGeo Board" group requires an account, and also
>> surprisingly it requires you to apply to 'join' the group discussion.
>> Yes, I am aware that I can visibly see the discussion by clicking on the
>> Loomio discussion link; but remember, OSGeo Board discussions are done
>> in the open and have always been very easy to follow through this
>> mailing list.  Now though, with Loomio, important discussions are
>> occurring on a system that only 9 people (the board members) have
>> privileges to both post a comment or receive email notifications.  I
>> actually assumed Loomio would somehow be used to log voting, but all
>> voting would still be displayed on the OSGeo Board list, and all
>> discussions would occur on the Board list.
>> 
>> Sure, Loomio offers nice charts and fancy tools, and votes are logged,
>> but since discussion is closed that really defeats the purpose.
>> 
>> Again, it might be great for the QGIS.ORG entity, but for OSGeo where we
>> have always tried to be so open and transparent, Loomio appears to me to
>> be a sudden change in the foundation's thinking.
>> 
>> Conclusion
>> ----------
>> 
>> I believe the OSGeo Board is still experimenting with Loomio, but I
>> wanted to give you my thoughts today, as I was surprised to find how
>> difficult it is to follow voting discussions now.
>> 
>> Maybe there is a way or a hook so that all discussions and messages on
>> Loomio are posted right away to this mailing list, so Loomio can be used
>> to record voting but have discussions still occur in the open.   Not sure.
>> 
>> I just think my impressions might be useful, as I tried to follow
>> today's discussions.  (yes, still do, always have, on each of OSGeo's
>> 200-ish mailing lists ha)
>> 
>> thanks,
>> 
>> -jeff
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Board mailing list
>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Helena Mitasova <hmitaso at ncsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Board] feedback on Loomio
> Date: 15 September 2016 at 04:28:01 BST
> To: vincent.ml at oslandia.com
> Cc: Jeff McKenna <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>, OSGeo Board <board at lists.osgeo.org>
> 
> 
> I have mixed feelings about Loomio too - maybe we should give it few more weeks and then decide 
> whether it i suitable for OSGeo board or not, Helena
> 
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Vincent Picavet (ml) <vincent.ml at oslandia.com <mailto:vincent.ml at oslandia.com>> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 14/09/2016 22:05, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> [..]
> > I know, I must sit back and let technology and innovation and people
> > grow, in OSGeo, but I was surprised to notice today that I cannot
> > receive email notifications and easily follow and join, what has always
> > been Open discussions for voting at the OSGeo Board level, any longer
> > because voting is now managed in a closed Loomio system.
> 
> I may start to be an old guy, but I do feel the same, and have been
> feeling the same with QGIS.ORG <http://qgis.org/> way of doing things too.
> 
> Thanks for raising the point.
> Vincent
> 
> 
> >
> > Background
> > ----------
> >
> > Before anyone gets upset at me for being so close-minded to change, I
> > should say that I have been involved in the formation of the QGIS.ORG <http://qgis.org/>
> > legal entity since its beginning, and I fully support that organization
> > (Tim and others invited me to edit their initial documents and provide
> > input on its formation).  I do realize that Loomio is being successfully
> > used by the QGIS.ORG <http://qgis.org/> Board.
> >
> >
> > Discussion
> > ----------
> >
> > The Loomio "OSGeo Board" group requires an account, and also
> > surprisingly it requires you to apply to 'join' the group discussion.
> > Yes, I am aware that I can visibly see the discussion by clicking on the
> > Loomio discussion link; but remember, OSGeo Board discussions are done
> > in the open and have always been very easy to follow through this
> > mailing list.  Now though, with Loomio, important discussions are
> > occurring on a system that only 9 people (the board members) have
> > privileges to both post a comment or receive email notifications.  I
> > actually assumed Loomio would somehow be used to log voting, but all
> > voting would still be displayed on the OSGeo Board list, and all
> > discussions would occur on the Board list.
> >
> > Sure, Loomio offers nice charts and fancy tools, and votes are logged,
> > but since discussion is closed that really defeats the purpose.
> >
> > Again, it might be great for the QGIS.ORG <http://qgis.org/> entity, but for OSGeo where we
> > have always tried to be so open and transparent, Loomio appears to me to
> > be a sudden change in the foundation's thinking.
> >
> > Conclusion
> > ----------
> >
> > I believe the OSGeo Board is still experimenting with Loomio, but I
> > wanted to give you my thoughts today, as I was surprised to find how
> > difficult it is to follow voting discussions now.
> >
> > Maybe there is a way or a hook so that all discussions and messages on
> > Loomio are posted right away to this mailing list, so Loomio can be used
> > to record voting but have discussions still occur in the open.   Not sure.
> >
> > I just think my impressions might be useful, as I tried to follow
> > today's discussions.  (yes, still do, always have, on each of OSGeo's
> > 200-ish mailing lists ha)
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > -jeff
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Board mailing list
> > Board at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:Board at lists.osgeo.org>
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board <http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Board mailing list
> Board at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:Board at lists.osgeo.org>
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board <http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Helena Mitasova
> Professor
> Department of Marine, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
> North Carolina State University
> 1125 Jordan Hall
> NCSU Box 8208
> Raleigh, NC 27695-8208
> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~hmitaso/ <http://www4.ncsu.edu/~hmitaso/>
> http://geospatial.ncsu.edu/ <http://geospatial.ncsu.edu/>
> 
> email: hmitaso at ncsu.edu <mailto:hmitaso at ncsu.edu>
> ph: 919-513-1327 (no voicemail)
> fax 919 515-7802
> 
> 
> 
> From: Venkatesh Raghavan <raghavan at media.osaka-cu.ac.jp>
> Subject: Re: [Board] feedback on Loomio
> Date: 15 September 2016 at 05:18:31 BST
> To: OSGeo Board <board at lists.osgeo.org>
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Thanks to Jeff and Vincent for expressing their concerns about
> the use of loomio for board discussions and voting.
> 
> I am still learning the ropes of loomio. However, if there is no way
> of setting loomio to receive comments from non-board members
> (without them having to appy to 'join' the discussions), it would be
> better that all discussion take place on the board ML and loomio
> used only to record the voting.
> 
> Best
> 
> Venka
> 
> On 2016/09/15 12:28, Helena Mitasova wrote:
>> I have mixed feelings about Loomio too - maybe we should give it few more
>> weeks and then decide
>> whether it i suitable for OSGeo board or not, Helena
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Vincent Picavet (ml) <
>> vincent.ml at oslandia.com <mailto:vincent.ml at oslandia.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On 14/09/2016 22:05, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>> [..]
>>>> I know, I must sit back and let technology and innovation and people
>>>> grow, in OSGeo, but I was surprised to notice today that I cannot
>>>> receive email notifications and easily follow and join, what has always
>>>> been Open discussions for voting at the OSGeo Board level, any longer
>>>> because voting is now managed in a closed Loomio system.
>>> I may start to be an old guy, but I do feel the same, and have been
>>> feeling the same with QGIS.ORG way of doing things too.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for raising the point.
>>> Vincent
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Background
>>>> ----------
>>>> 
>>>> Before anyone gets upset at me for being so close-minded to change, I
>>>> should say that I have been involved in the formation of the QGIS.ORG
>>>> legal entity since its beginning, and I fully support that organization
>>>> (Tim and others invited me to edit their initial documents and provide
>>>> input on its formation).  I do realize that Loomio is being successfully
>>>> used by the QGIS.ORG Board.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Discussion
>>>> ----------
>>>> 
>>>> The Loomio "OSGeo Board" group requires an account, and also
>>>> surprisingly it requires you to apply to 'join' the group discussion.
>>>> Yes, I am aware that I can visibly see the discussion by clicking on the
>>>> Loomio discussion link; but remember, OSGeo Board discussions are done
>>>> in the open and have always been very easy to follow through this
>>>> mailing list.  Now though, with Loomio, important discussions are
>>>> occurring on a system that only 9 people (the board members) have
>>>> privileges to both post a comment or receive email notifications.  I
>>>> actually assumed Loomio would somehow be used to log voting, but all
>>>> voting would still be displayed on the OSGeo Board list, and all
>>>> discussions would occur on the Board list.
>>>> 
>>>> Sure, Loomio offers nice charts and fancy tools, and votes are logged,
>>>> but since discussion is closed that really defeats the purpose.
>>>> 
>>>> Again, it might be great for the QGIS.ORG entity, but for OSGeo where we
>>>> have always tried to be so open and transparent, Loomio appears to me to
>>>> be a sudden change in the foundation's thinking.
>>>> 
>>>> Conclusion
>>>> ----------
>>>> 
>>>> I believe the OSGeo Board is still experimenting with Loomio, but I
>>>> wanted to give you my thoughts today, as I was surprised to find how
>>>> difficult it is to follow voting discussions now.
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe there is a way or a hook so that all discussions and messages on
>>>> Loomio are posted right away to this mailing list, so Loomio can be used
>>>> to record voting but have discussions still occur in the open.   Not
>>> sure.
>>>> I just think my impressions might be useful, as I tried to follow
>>>> today's discussions.  (yes, still do, always have, on each of OSGeo's
>>>> 200-ish mailing lists ha)
>>>> 
>>>> thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> -jeff
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Board mailing list
>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:Board at lists.osgeo.org>
>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board <http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Board mailing list
>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:Board at lists.osgeo.org>
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board <http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Board mailing list
>> Board at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:Board at lists.osgeo.org>
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board <http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Board mailing list
> Board at lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board

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