[OSGeo-Discuss] Open Location Services

Tue Nov 3 12:23:42 PST 2009

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Cameron Shorter
<cameron.shorter at gmail.com> wrote:
> Puneet,
> I don't have a specific answer for "How Much LISAsoft's OpenLS code costs to
> Open Source" yet, I'd need to do the analysis, and so I'll talk in general
> terms, based on my experience with other projects.
>

Fair enough. If and when you do finish your analysis, I would be very
interested in knowing the cost of OpenLS code. Knowing how much is
something is the first step in determining whether or not it is worth
it to me, so I would like to know what its "sale" price is.

> 1. For LISAsoft, "Just dumping code into Sourceforge" is usually not an
> option. Our reputation is based upon our understanding of Open Source and
> producing quality software, and it would be detrimental to our image, and
> hence our future job prospects to do a poor job.
>

Very understandable. Of course, the above implies that the code is not
ready to be put (replacing the value laden term "dumped" with the more
benign "put") into Soureforge. I am assuming you have already paying
customers for it though (more on that below), so they have probably
already put a price on it, and considered it of worthy quality.

> 2. For simple projects, Open Sourcing can easily at least a few weeks, to
> put processes and web sites in place. But the bigger cost is growing and
> supporting the community, maybe one person day per week, for the rest of the
> year. I heard that Autodesk decided to provide a major re-write of their
> MapGuide Open Source software before Open Sourcing, which would likely have
> cost them man months, probably man years.
>

What if you had a website? Hypothetically speaking, what if OSGeo said
that they would provide the server and repo and mailing list, etc.?
Wouldn't that take off some of the "packaging" cost?

> 3. Yes, LISAsoft will miss out on opportunity costs because we derive
> commercial advantage by owning an OpenLS codebase.

Ahhh! So, there is a perceived advantage to keeping the source closed,
which kinda works counter to the perceived advantage of opening up the
source -- the general assumption is that, if successful, open sourcing
will bring more attention, rapid development and improvement, more
bugs being flushed out, more awareness, hence, possibly, more
customers, yadda yadda.

>
> At the end of the day, our decision will be financial. Can we make more
> money by Open Sourcing or not. At LISAsoft we support both Open and Closed
> source business models, depending on which makes better business sense.
>

No doubt. I find it fascinating that closed source business models
make sense in a primarily open source world (whereby "world," I mean
the OSGeo world). I just presumed that as far as source code was
concerned, the primary mindset and approach of everyone would be that
open was better than closed. Seems like there are, possibly many,
cases where this is not so.

There are a couple of things I have learned from this thread --

1. "Internal," somewhat mature, projects, owned by a commercial
entity, that are currently closed source throw up a lot more thinking
before they can be made open source;

2. This is something I just had never thought about. I need to study
this a lot more, in greater detail and breadth.

Many thanks Cameron, for your patience and answers.

> P Kishor wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Morissette
>> <dmorissette at mapgears.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> P Kishor wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Cameron Shorter
>>>> <cameron.shorter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> P Kishor wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Shorter
>>>>>> <cameron.shorter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>> LISAsoft has a java implementation of OpenLS which we would like to
>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>> Source if we can find a sponsor to cover our packaging costs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What kind of costs are "packaging costs," and what do they amount to
>>>>>> generally, and for OpenLS, more specifically?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> P Kishor,
>>>>> As you are probably aware, just dumping code into sourceforge is not an
>>>>> effective way to start a successful Open Source project.
>>>>> There needs to be suitable  technical documentation, development
>>>>> processes
>>>>> documentation, web pages set up, issue trackers put in place, access
>>>>> writes
>>>>> granted to developers, and then have at least one champion sit on email
>>>>> lists supporting new users.
>>>>> That is what I consider "packaging costs".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The above makes sense, but honestly, I had never heard of this until
>>>> now, and I have been tinkering with open source for almost a decade
>>>> now. Most open source projects seemed organic to me. Someone had an
>>>> itch, they scratched it, they put it out, and the project either
>>>> gathered traction, or it died. Seems like my scholarship of open
>>>> source has been lacking in this aspect hugely.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Puneet,
>>>
>>> I have to run now, so I don't have time for a long answer, but I just
>>> wanted
>>> to add that Cameron is right... unfortunately it's not as simple as
>>> setting
>>> up a project on sourceforge even if it may seem to be that way from the
>>> user's perspective.
>>>
>>> I have been through the process of open sourcing projects several times
>>> over
>>> the last 10 years, and did it again a few weeks ago with the GeoPrisma
>>> launch. I think we are getting better at it as we gain experience, and
>>> can
>>> confirm that those packaging costs and planning requirements are real and
>>> need to be taken into account for a successful project launch. Another
>>> aspect to consider that I don't think was mentioned is to balance the
>>> pros
>>> and cons of open sourcing and not doing it on your own business and on
>>> the
>>> project/product itself.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Based on Daniel's response, a thought occurred to me -- my inquiry in
>> this thread might be seen as an "attack" on the concept of packaging
>> costs. I want to put this disclaimer forward, even though I thought I
>> had made my intentions clear in my first email -- I am not at all
>> antagonistic or in any way attacking the concept of packaging costs in
>> general or LISASoft in particular. I am merely curious. I had never
>> heard of packaging costs until this thread, so obviously, my
>> scholarship of open source, particularly its economics and motivation,
>> has been seriously lacking, and I need to correct it. And, what better
>> way to do that than to ask the person who is asking for packaging
>> costs in the first place.
>>
>> 1. How much are we talking about here?
>>
>> 2. Of course, any price is worth it if someone is willing to pay it,
>> but how to determine if the amount being asked in #1 above is
>> commensurate with the value of the product being considered, and is in
>> line with the value of similar products?
>>
>> 3. If no one comes up with the packaging costs, would you not put it
>> into open source, or would you still put it, but just "dump the code
>> into sourceforge" and let Darwin take care of it?
>>
>> 4. If you do put it in open source without any packaging costs being
>> paid to you, would you be losing out on any particular revenue other
>> than the time spent to put it into open source?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>> --
>>> Daniel Morissette
>>> http://www.mapgears.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cameron Shorter
> Geospatial Systems Architect
> Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
> Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254
>
> Think Globally, Fix Locally
> Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
> http://www.lisasoft.com
>
>

-- 
Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org
Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org
Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org
Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor
Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu
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