[OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list

Tue Nov 17 05:30:04 PST 2009

I find the underlying bias of this discussion itself fascinating.  Landon is
right that surveying/engineering is male-dominated; yet nobody complains
that nursing is female-dominated. I have to wonder what really is the
problem? Money aside - what's inherently wrong with fewer women in
math/science? Surveyors are more important to our society than kindergarten
teachers? Tough argument to make IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I know gender discrimination still exists, but I wonder
if we're so eager to solve a problem (being tech people that's what we do)
that we lose sight of what the goal is. I go to economic development
presentations and people talk about developing tech jobs etc. What they're
really talking about is developing jobs that make more money and are less
resource-intensive - after all green is the new black. That said, there are
lots of skilled, well-paying careers that aren't manufacturing nor easily
outsourced yet aren't math/science. So I'm not so much being critical as I
am confused at the real purpose.

As tech people that's a bias that is really hard for many of us to recognize
we even have. Some of us forget that there are other people out there with
rich, fulfilling lives that can barely turn on a computer. Welding for
example - if you're an amazing welder you can make a ton of money - and some
people certainly enjoy it. Or sales. Yeah I dislike talking to tech
marketing people on the phone too - but who am I to say their job is wrong
for them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should raise a generation of
waitresses and receptionists because it was the lazy choice - but at the
same time we need to overcome our own bias of non-tech fields as being
inherently inferior and encourage proper valuation of all roles in society.

After all, it's arrogant to tell people what should be important for their
lives. I've known people that basically decided all they wanted to do in
their life is surf so they just live in a tiny apartment and make furniture
on the side so they can do what they love. Who am I to tell them that my
life is better? Because I make more money? I have a nicer cellphone? Big
deal - if I hated my life that wouldn't matter. You only get one life so you
gotta live it in a way that makes you happy. You can throw statistics into
it like growth expectations, salary, etc.. At the end of the day most of us
will spend more time working than any other task in our lives, so if you're
not enjoying what you're doing then you're doing it wrong.

I don't have kids but I do work with youth a lot, fortunate to have some
amazing kids and you know I try to avoid telling them what to do - I just
try to help them discover their options and their value system. If they all
decided to go into retail and lead happy lives it'd make no difference to me
than if they all became neurosurgeons or aeronautical engineers. I genuinely
do not care and do not think it matters -  as long as they get the best
opportunities to choose for themselves and lead fulfilling lives. One 17yo
girl for example wants to start a restaurant. Another is starting off in IT
at Heald. So somehow the second person is "better"? I just don't understand
a mindset like that. Does not compute.

As for the original task of "how to encourage more women into these fields"
(which I'm for, I just don't think it's a problem if they all choose not to)
- well I think that Cornell study [1] is a good starting point for anyone
that wants to understand one glance at it. A lot of the family-building
aspect for example is related to how we prioritize work/life balance in the
US. If you look at other countries like many in Europe they have far more
family friendly cultures/laws with better maternal/paternal leave options
[2], etc. Our FMLA in the US is a joke compared to what you can get in
France, Sweden, etc - and I think it really speaks volumes about what we
consider to be important in our lives.

That said, I don't know how this really is specific to osgeo in particular.
It may be better served under a broader focus of GIS for Women, Open Source
for Women.. etc. I guess I'm curious what sort of goals are set. University
recruitment? Encouraging female OS developers in general to engage in OSGeo?
I'm a bit lost on the intent.

 - bri

1. Women’s Underrepresentation in Science: Sociocultural and Biological
Considerations - http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1352218.pdf
2.
http://www.apesma.asn.au/women/maternity_leave_around_the_world.asp#Americas

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Agustin Diez Castillo <adiez at uv.es> wrote:

> There are tons of articles about women and science since more than 20 years
> ago I will recomend a look to Longino (1987) [1].
> [1] http://www.jstor.org/pss/3810122
>
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Landon Blake wrote:
>
> > Tyler,
> >
> > I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to
> > conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because
> > there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with.
> >
> > A possible response to your wife's argument is that our society tends to
> > condition women for certain types of roles, and that we steer them away
> > from careers in math or science. I don't know if this is true, but I can
> > tell you I see the same lack of women in surveying and engineering as I
> > do in software development. I don't have any daughters, but I have a
> > couple nieces. It seems my younger niece, who is currently a freshman in
> > high school, doesn't get much encouragement to think about math and
> > science careers, although I think she has the brains for it. Her older
> > brother, who is a senior in high school, is being encouraged to pursue a
> > degree in mechanical engineering or a technical job in the United States
> > Air Force.
> >
> > This in just one small example of what may be a larger trend in the way
> > we view our children, at least in the United States.
> >
> > If our society is guilty of this bias in the way we raise, train, and
> > teach our daughters, then some conscious effort to correct this bias is
> > probably not inappropriate.
> >
> > I'm sure your wife and others have a response to this argument as well.
> > If nothing else, I think this is a good conversation to have.
> >
> > Hopefully I did not just open Pandora's Box. :]
> >
> > Landon
> > Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
> > Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tyler Mitchell [mailto:tmitchell.osgeo at shaw.ca]
> > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:51 PM
> > To: Landon Blake
> > Cc: OSGeo Discussions
> > Subject: Re: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
> >
> >> Maybe my statement was misunderstood?
> >>
> >> I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed
> >> what we
> >> might do to encourage the participation of more women in the
> >> project. I
> >> think there was recognition across the board that the project
> >> would have
> >> benefited from more diversity.
> >>
> >> I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in
> >> math and
> >> science could be combined with encouraging them to try
> >> volunteering with
> >> an OSGeo project?
> >
> > Hi Landon,
> >
> > I understand, please bear with me, I'm probably the unclear one.  Some
> > of the women I know very well (one in particular :) tend to find it a
> > wee bit condescending to be treated like a "special" group when in
> > reality they are fully capable of joining projects they are interested
> > in.
> >
> > Speaking of open source software, if fewer women are involved I just
> > assume they aren't as interested.. just like any other group of people
> > that make their own choices regardless of what others think would be
> > optimal.
> >
> > It's not a big deal to me, but I've been briefed on the subject from my
> > wife's angle regularly over the years so I feel compelled to pass it on
> > :-)
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Tyler
> >
> >
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