[OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list

Tue Nov 17 07:32:05 PST 2009

Bri wrote: "I'm not saying we should raise a generation of waitresses
and receptionists because it was the lazy choice - but at the same time
we need to overcome our own bias of non-tech fields as being inherently
inferior and encourage proper valuation of all roles in society."

I agree with your perspective on this 100%. I would argue most surveyors
make a rather modest living. I entered the profession not for the money,
but because I enjoyed drawing maps and wanted the chance to work
outdoors.

I didn't mean to imply that people in technical professions are somehow
better than those in non-technical professions. I just think we
sometimes limit people because of our preconceived ideas about there
abilities. I study the bible with a young man who has Autism. Most
people expect very little from him. However, the young man has the most
amazing ability to remember of any person I have ever met in my life. I
am always trying to push him to do more, because I believe he is capable
of more than society expects.

My main point is that we should encourage more diversity in our
professions. Software development and land surveying would benefit from
more women, and nursing would likely benefit from more men. (Ironically,
I have a good friend that is in school for nursing right now, and he is
a man.)

I believe having a diverse profession can ultimately lead to new
approaches to problems and new solutions. When I think about the small
company I work for, I realize diversity is an asset, and something we
could use more of. One of the things I have enjoyed about OpenJUMP is
the opportunity to work with people from all around the world. People
that spell color as "colour" instead of "color". :]

Landon

________________________________

From: discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Brian Russo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:30 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list

I find the underlying bias of this discussion itself fascinating.
Landon is right that surveying/engineering is male-dominated; yet nobody
complains that nursing is female-dominated. I have to wonder what really
is the problem? Money aside - what's inherently wrong with fewer women
in math/science? Surveyors are more important to our society than
kindergarten teachers? Tough argument to make IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I know gender discrimination still exists, but I
wonder if we're so eager to solve a problem (being tech people that's
what we do) that we lose sight of what the goal is. I go to economic
development presentations and people talk about developing tech jobs
etc. What they're really talking about is developing jobs that make more
money and are less resource-intensive - after all green is the new
black. That said, there are lots of skilled, well-paying careers that
aren't manufacturing nor easily outsourced yet aren't math/science. So
I'm not so much being critical as I am confused at the real purpose.

As tech people that's a bias that is really hard for many of us to
recognize we even have. Some of us forget that there are other people
out there with rich, fulfilling lives that can barely turn on a
computer. Welding for example - if you're an amazing welder you can make
a ton of money - and some people certainly enjoy it. Or sales. Yeah I
dislike talking to tech marketing people on the phone too - but who am I
to say their job is wrong for them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying
we should raise a generation of waitresses and receptionists because it
was the lazy choice - but at the same time we need to overcome our own
bias of non-tech fields as being inherently inferior and encourage
proper valuation of all roles in society. 

After all, it's arrogant to tell people what should be important for
their lives. I've known people that basically decided all they wanted to
do in their life is surf so they just live in a tiny apartment and make
furniture on the side so they can do what they love. Who am I to tell
them that my life is better? Because I make more money? I have a nicer
cellphone? Big deal - if I hated my life that wouldn't matter. You only
get one life so you gotta live it in a way that makes you happy. You can
throw statistics into it like growth expectations, salary, etc.. At the
end of the day most of us will spend more time working than any other
task in our lives, so if you're not enjoying what you're doing then
you're doing it wrong.

I don't have kids but I do work with youth a lot, fortunate to have some
amazing kids and you know I try to avoid telling them what to do - I
just try to help them discover their options and their value system. If
they all decided to go into retail and lead happy lives it'd make no
difference to me than if they all became neurosurgeons or aeronautical
engineers. I genuinely do not care and do not think it matters -  as
long as they get the best opportunities to choose for themselves and
lead fulfilling lives. One 17yo girl for example wants to start a
restaurant. Another is starting off in IT at Heald. So somehow the
second person is "better"? I just don't understand a mindset like that.
Does not compute.

As for the original task of "how to encourage more women into these
fields" (which I'm for, I just don't think it's a problem if they all
choose not to) - well I think that Cornell study [1] is a good starting
point for anyone that wants to understand one glance at it. A lot of the
family-building aspect for example is related to how we prioritize
work/life balance in the US. If you look at other countries like many in
Europe they have far more family friendly cultures/laws with better
maternal/paternal leave options [2], etc. Our FMLA in the US is a joke
compared to what you can get in France, Sweden, etc - and I think it
really speaks volumes about what we consider to be important in our
lives. 

That said, I don't know how this really is specific to osgeo in
particular. It may be better served under a broader focus of GIS for
Women, Open Source for Women.. etc. I guess I'm curious what sort of
goals are set. University recruitment? Encouraging female OS developers
in general to engage in OSGeo? I'm a bit lost on the intent.

 - bri

1. Women's Underrepresentation in Science: Sociocultural and Biological
Considerations - http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1352218.pdf
2.
http://www.apesma.asn.au/women/maternity_leave_around_the_world.asp#Amer
icas

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Agustin Diez Castillo <adiez at uv.es>
wrote:

There are tons of articles about women and science since more than 20
years ago I will recomend a look to Longino (1987) [1].
[1] http://www.jstor.org/pss/3810122

On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Landon Blake wrote:

> Tyler,
>
> I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable
to
> conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because
> there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with.
>
> A possible response to your wife's argument is that our society tends
to
> condition women for certain types of roles, and that we steer them
away
> from careers in math or science. I don't know if this is true, but I
can
> tell you I see the same lack of women in surveying and engineering as
I
> do in software development. I don't have any daughters, but I have a
> couple nieces. It seems my younger niece, who is currently a freshman
in
> high school, doesn't get much encouragement to think about math and
> science careers, although I think she has the brains for it. Her older
> brother, who is a senior in high school, is being encouraged to pursue
a
> degree in mechanical engineering or a technical job in the United
States
> Air Force.
>
> This in just one small example of what may be a larger trend in the
way
> we view our children, at least in the United States.
>
> If our society is guilty of this bias in the way we raise, train, and
> teach our daughters, then some conscious effort to correct this bias
is
> probably not inappropriate.
>
> I'm sure your wife and others have a response to this argument as
well.
> If nothing else, I think this is a good conversation to have.
>
> Hopefully I did not just open Pandora's Box. :]
>
> Landon
> Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
> Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tyler Mitchell [mailto:tmitchell.osgeo at shaw.ca]
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:51 PM
> To: Landon Blake
> Cc: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
>
>> Maybe my statement was misunderstood?
>>
>> I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed
>> what we
>> might do to encourage the participation of more women in the
>> project. I
>> think there was recognition across the board that the project
>> would have
>> benefited from more diversity.
>>
>> I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in
>> math and
>> science could be combined with encouraging them to try
>> volunteering with
>> an OSGeo project?
>
> Hi Landon,
>
> I understand, please bear with me, I'm probably the unclear one.  Some
> of the women I know very well (one in particular :) tend to find it a
> wee bit condescending to be treated like a "special" group when in
> reality they are fully capable of joining projects they are interested
> in.
>
> Speaking of open source software, if fewer women are involved I just
> assume they aren't as interested.. just like any other group of people
> that make their own choices regardless of what others think would be
> optimal.
>
> It's not a big deal to me, but I've been briefed on the subject from
my
> wife's angle regularly over the years so I feel compelled to pass it
on
> :-)
>
> Best wishes,
> Tyler
>
>
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