[OSGeo-Discuss] Munich Orientation Convention, Mapcodes, and All the Rest

Thu Jul 30 05:38:51 PDT 2015

Hi Steve,

Ø  A little research on the topic of USNG/MGRS and how it works would be of benefit to those who wish to slam a worldwide referencing system created after WWII when a NATO armed forces business review determined the Allies got too many people killed trying to use latitude/longitude when street addresses don’t work.  The answer isn’t hypothetical, it’s written in blood.
I’ve not seen anyone “slam” the MRGS. I did point out myself that it serves a slightly different, albeit somewhat overlapping purpose to those other systems that have been highlighted earlier. It’s clearly great for the military and I have little doubt it’d be similarly useful for first-responders. That said, that doesn’t mean it’s a perfect fit for the civil world where military or even first-responder discipline is in short supply.

Ø  (two less than a phone number, and who can’t remember that?)
Lots-of-people can’t remember them (http://www.engadget.com/2005/03/12/cant-remember-phone-numbers-youre-not-alone/ - or http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7885227/Most-people-cannot-remember-partners-mobile-phone-number.html)

“An online test to assess the [UK’s] ability to recall sequences of numbers found nine in 10 cannot remember a mobile phone number after an interlude of just five seconds”

I’m not sure how your examples show MGRS as superior. In the first case the problems appear to have been institutional, and in the second it’s a lack of navigation/map-reading skills on the part of both the teacher and the first wave of responders. In neither case would MGRS or any other system been helpful. If you don’t know where you are, you can’t communicate, and if the people you’re communicating with aren’t listening, there’s little benefit to communicating in the first place.

I don’t know what the solution is, but it doesn’t seem like MGRS would be the panacea you put forth, just like I suspect there are problems with the other systems. But I do agree with you and others that it’s an important subject.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

From: discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Steve Swazee
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 3:26 PM
To: discuss at lists.osgeo.org
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Munich Orientation Convention, Mapcodes, and All the Rest

Dr. Reed, et al.,
“Somehow I do not see a dispatcher saying to a responding officer, "Shots fired at 103132" :-)”  Carl, you are wrong.

On June 30, 2013, 19 wildland firefighters lost their lives when a wall of fast moving flame over took their position at the Yarnell Hill fire in Arizona.  Reports from that incident attempt to gloss over a body of evidence pointing to geospatial ineptness at all levels with terms like “fog of war” and “communication clutter”.  It is the only way those at the top of the food chain can defend themselves from the reality that as those firefighters climbed into their last defense fire shelters known as “shake and bake bags”, those 19 souls were unable to quickly and effectively communicate their location and request help.  A truly unfortunate circumstance given there was a large airborne tanker full of retardant circling directly overhead their position.  This incident has sparked an ongoing debate in the wildland fire community - that like the armed forces before it – the nation’s wildland fire community needs to get onboard with use of the USNG/MGRS.  Try this:  Mayday, Mayday, Mayday – 8975 4563.  For those who know how the grid works, those 8 digits (two less than a phone number, and who can’t remember that?) just passed location for a retardant drop with a location accuracy of 33’.

On May 22, 2013, grade school students from a Minneapolis suburb were on a fossil hunting field trip at the Lilydale Regional Park which sits along the Mississippi River flats in St. Paul, MN.  A landslide there buried two children and a desperate call for help was made to the 911 center.  Street address for a large rambling park that stretches for miles – one.  Ability of a panicked teacher unfamiliar with the area to describe location in the park so someone could understand – zero.  Smartphone triangulation – crap.   But it doesn’t stop there.  Despite the park being in the middle of dense urban area, it took responders more than 50 minutes to locate the incident site, and even after the first wave of responders found the location, those responders were unable to provide information about their location for additional assistance.   Outcome?  Two dead children.  Beyond that loss of life, the incident has cost the City of St. Paul something north of $1.5 million.  The result has been a heap of soul searching about how to communicate location when a street address won’t work.  Carl, from being here for the TC GECCo, you already know what the answer is.  In the City of St. Paul, Minnesota, responders are now expected to know what “Shots fired at 103132” means.  Too bad it took the death of these two children in 2013 to force adoption of a plan laid out in 2011.

If you want more examples, I have them – responders in Florida are now using 6 digit grid coordinates (100 meter accuracy) to communicate the coordinates of helicopter landing zones – and so on.

The naïve and uniformed comments I have been reading on this board in an effort to promote a new best thing for communicating location, are troubling in the extreme.  I believe part of the charter of OSGeo is service to the common good.  Yet, the reality of these plans and promotions fly in the face of the Harry S. Truman quote: “It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.”  In an effort to be “the hero” who solves the street address problem – the hawking of these half-baked plans here and elsewhere (see the recent New Yorker magazine Map Codes article: http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/should-mapcodes-replace-gps?mbid=social_facebook) is creating geospatial confusion at the cost of lives.

A little research on the topic of USNG/MGRS and how it works would be of benefit to those who wish to slam a worldwide referencing system created after WWII when a NATO armed forces business review determined the Allies got too many people killed trying to use latitude/longitude when street addresses don’t work.  The answer isn’t hypothetical, it’s written in blood.

I return to my original point in response to the Munich Orientation Convention posting. “If OSGeo wanted to do something to truly help the world gain better situational awareness, it would stop for a moment and reflect on the realities of these "new" best ideas for relating location - the same way it has inserted itself into the open LiDAR discussion - and begin working to understand and promote the Military Gird Reference System (MGRS). “  It DOES MATTER what you build into your Open Source Software for location referencing – in a big way.

Regards,
Steve

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