[OSGeo-Discuss] avoiding email filters- Poll: Change FOSS4G structure to have some continuity of organization and management

Sat Feb 19 01:23:49 PST 2022

Dear Paul,

In my experience in the volunteer/activist work (since 2002), considering
either causes I have served for with steering committee roles (including
the Italian language OSGEO Chapter in 2007-2010), and having analyzed cases
of other organizations on national scales (e.g. large environment-related
NGOs in Europe)...

My opinion is that any community growing will lead to steps which can imply
"quantum shifts".

To keep the cause growing, these shifts need to handled with adjustments
and measures in the organizational model, in the scale of budgets and time
required etc., in validating people's expectations and priorities in time -
I have followed national environmental festival and exhibition for years,
and you can see how a cause can be more or less promoted on  different
scales. etc. how an thematic event can be professionally organized, but
become substantially de-voided of the intentions of the founding fathers of
the community focused on the same theme, etc...

Since 2010 I have been out of any operational role in OSGEO, GFOSS.it or
other similar organizations, but I keep a line of promoting free/open
source technologies, and open knolwedge. As far as I know, I think that any
model is ok, as long as the cause keeps growing, while there are cases
where the energy required to elaborate the vehicle to promote it (in this
case a conference) becomes more than the energy actually used to work...
(this is a sort of revamping of Northcote Parkinson's Law
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._Northcote_Parkinson>).

In these cases, I also find it helpful to re-re-re-read this article
<http://www.pibinko.org/in-between-the-cathedral-and-the-bazaar-points-of-view-on-freeopen-geographic-information-from-2007-to-2013/>
from 2010. Centralization and de-centralization, or federation (remember
CORBA?), or "grid conferencing" (rember grid computing?)....we as
communities keep shifting between these paradigms...but at the end of the
day what is the difference?

Hope to see you in Florence, in person if you will be there because it is
socioeconomically sustainable for you, or via some form of connection (not
necessarily TCP/IP or HTTP based), and best regards from Southern Tuscany.

Andrea Giacomelli
Culture, environment, open innovation, and music: Molto Bello!
http//www.pibinko.org - http://www.jugbandcm.it - http://www.moltobello.info
micalosapevo at pibinko.org
+39 331 7539 228
P.IVA IT01582480537

Il giorno ven 18 feb 2022 alle ore 19:50 Paul Ramsey via Discuss <
discuss at lists.osgeo.org> ha scritto:

> I am, naturally of two minds about this.
>
> As Sanghee says, the act of pulling together a local conference can be one
> that draws together people from multiple parts of the local geo ecosystem,
> makes new connections that might never be made. Gathering up public,
> private, and NGO sponsors in your local area, and having them all
> experience the FOSS4G thing, something they might not have otherwise gotten
> to be a part of... it requires a local commitment, and local connections,
> to make it happen.
>
> Moving to a centralized system, where the locale is primarily a source of
> a venue, an interesting city and some novel culinary options, loses a lot
> of that. I appreciated the turn-key aspect of FOSS4G-NA when LocationTech
> was carrying the organizing load, but the event itself became denatured
> somehow. It lacked the organic connections it had when it was (earlier) in
> Minnesota or (later) in San Diego.
>
> There will be a loss.
>
> On the other hand (of course), this doesn't come for free. The very
> uniqueness and organicness flows from the "figuring things out on the fly
> and making the connections needed" that local organizers go through. The
> very thing that provides the magic spark, burns them down to the ground.
>
> And the supply of those people, is finite. We've gotten on a long time (at
> least 5 years longer than I would predicted!) with people continuing to
> step up and volunteer for the load. It may be that Covid and the "virtual
> conference" has been what finally killed the supply of enthusiasm. I know
> myself that part of the "fun" of volunteering for the grind was knowing the
> world was going to come to town. When the world is just "dialing in", the
> sense of reward is (I think) a lot lower for organizers. One of the
> ego-gratifying aspects of organizing the conference is being able to see
> your local contacts go "whoa, this is really real, I thought you were
> always just blowing smoke" as they wander through a hall full of 1000 open
> source geospatial advocates.
>
> Anyways, lots of words to no great conclusion. I think a central
> organization would be more "sustainable" but potentially deterimental to
> the ethos of the thing. Also, very very very very dependent on finding the
> right resource to actually do the centralized work. It could also be a
> disaster in the wrong hands and kill the whole thing dead forever.
>
> ATB,
> P
>
>
> > On Feb 17, 2022, at 9:25 PM, Eli Adam <eadam at co.lincoln.or.us> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > You're all listed as current conference committee members,
> https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Conference_Committee#Current_Members.  I
> haven't heard from you on the conference list poll.  Here is the original
> if you missed it,
> https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/conference_dev/2022-February/005740.html
> >
> > Can you share your thoughts?  Preferably on the list, falling back
> offlist.
> >
> > Best regards, Eli
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Eli Adam <eadam at co.lincoln.or.us>
> > Date: Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 9:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Poll: Change FOSS4G structure
> to have some continuity of organization and management
> > To: OSGeo-Conf <conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org>
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > It has been two weeks on this poll and we have heard from 7 of 19 voting
> members or 37%.  63% have not responded.
> >
> > Till, Peter, David B, Maria B, Vasile, David F, Gavin, Claude,
> Venkatesh, Paul, Msilikale, and Mark have not responded (or I missed it).
> Do any of you have an opinion on this matter?
> >
> > Some of the best ideas and contributions to the conference committee
> have come from non-voting members and that remains a possibility.  In my
> mind Jeroen has provided valuable insight on conferences for ten years or
> more.  I greatly value that.  The focus on voting members is to try to get
> responses and that the conference committee has had difficulty operating
> and is sometimes unwieldy.  If the voting members are unable to operate (or
> even decide if they want to try operating on something), then we don't have
> to waste time on it.
> >
> > Best regards, Eli
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 1:25 PM Bruce Bannerman via Discuss <
> discuss at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
> > Well said Sanghee.
> >
> > As a former member of the LOC for FOSS4G-2009 I agree with the local
> community development argument, though in our case it led to a lot of
> burn-out.
> >
> > There is also the practicality of finding a conference organiser that
> can operate effectively anywhere in the world.
> >
> > Should the alternate approach go through, significant thought also needs
> to go into the procurement process to avoid the very real potential for
> corruption.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> >> On 9 Feb 2022, at 01:28, 신상희 via Discuss <discuss at lists.osgeo.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I prefer option 1.
> >>
> >> If this poll was asked just after FOSS4G Seoul 2015, I would have
> selected option 2 without any hesitations.
> >>
> >> However I now realize that I, LOC members, and local community had
> learned a lot by going through the difficulties of preparing the event
> altogether. That experience was very unique, invaluable and is now one of
> driving force of vibrant activity of OSGeo Korean chapter. Community driven
> FOSS4G with help from PCO is not so bad model, I think.
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >> 신상희
> >> ---
> >> Shin, Sanghee
> >> Gaia3D, Inc. - The GeoSpatial Company
> >> www.gaia3d.com
> >>
> >> ------ Original Message ------
> >> From: "michael terner" <ternergeo at gmail.com>
> >> To: "Steven Feldman" <shfeldman at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: "OSGeo-Conf" <conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org>; "OSGeo Discussions"
> <discuss at lists.osgeo.org>; "Massimiliano Cannata" <
> massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch>; "Eli Adam" <eadam at co.lincoln.or.us>
> >> Sent: 2022-02-06 오전 6:09:42
> >> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Conf] Poll: Change FOSS4G structure to have some
> continuity of organization and management
> >>
> >>> +2 for considering change
> >>>
> >>> There's definitely room to consider continual improvements for the
> conference process, as the world, and our community has evolved
> considerably over the last few years. No easy solutions, but lots to think
> about.
> >>>
> >>> Eli starting this thread with an "informal poll" makes complete sense.
> The Committee is simply doing it's job of helping the Board to manage and
> promote the conference activity. We don't get to make decisions by
> ourselves, but generating ideas is certainly part of the mandate. And, as
> others have said, if the board disagrees with a proposal/idea, they do not
> have to approve it.
> >>>
> >>> MT
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022, 6:02 AM Steven Feldman <shfeldman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> +2 from me
> >>>
> >>> Everyone is welcome to participate in the conversation about changes
> to the organisation of FOSS4G, then the Conference Ctee should vote and
> make a recommendation (or recommendations) to the Board and the Board
> should decide.
> >>>
> >>> Our organisational model is that the charter members elect the board
> and the board then makes decisions on their behalf, if CM’s don’t agree
> with board decisions they have the option to vote in a new board, we do not
> have a direct voting or referendum system where CM’s are consulted on
> individual decisions.
> >>> ______
> >>> Steven
> >>>
> >>> Unusual maps in strange places -  mappery.org
> >>>
> >>> Subscribe to my weekly “Maps in the Wild” newsletter
> >>>
> >>>> On 4 Feb 2022, at 09:01, Jeroen Ticheler <jeroen.ticheler at geocat.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Maxi,
> >>>> Thanks! I completely agree with those type of changes indeed. It
> makes sense we have a list of scenario’s forward and have a vote on that by
> the community.
> >>>>
> >>>> For what the membership of the conference committee is concerned, I
> left simply because of the supposed/imposed barrier of not having been a
> conference chair, although I didn’t agree with that at all. Didn’t feel
> like fighting over it though. It would be better to make membership
> voluntary just like other committees. Possibly approved by the board or
> charter members.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Jeroen
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Jeroen Ticheler
> >>>> Mobile: +31681286572
> >>>> E-mail: jeroen.ticheler at geocat.net
> >>>> https://www.geocat.net
> >>>> Veenderweg 13
> >>>> 6721 WD Bennekom
> >>>> The Netherlands
> >>>> Tel: +31318416664
> >>>> On 4 Feb 2022, 09:02 +0100, Massimiliano Cannata <
> massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch>, wrote:
> >>>>> Dear Jeroen,
> >>>>> Thanks for your considerations.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I wasn't proposing to extend the evaluation of proposals to the
> whole community. I understand a dedicated committee should do this (even
> though I believe a part of the evaluation of a proposal could be assigned
> by votes of the community, maybe 10%?).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My point is that decisions of changing the organisation of the
> FOSS4G cannot be done without the involvement of the whole community. It's
> not about changing the evaluation process, it's about deciding for example
> to have a fixed location, to completely leave it to an external company, to
> pay the committee members to do it, to have it online or in person, to
> cancel the global and keep only to local conference...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another point is that so far there's the assumption that only
> organizer of previous FOSS4G have the competence to understand technical
> matters. That's quite aleatory and in no other committee there is such an
> entry barrier... If you didn't play in NBA you cannot be a good coach? Can
> a government self-elect his members? What about innovation, new ideas and
> other experiences, or we're just close in our FOSS4G past events
> experience... Because only if you run a global conference you have the
> competence...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry to be long, and this is not personal at all, I just like being
> inclusive and have empowered participatory approach..
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All the best,
> >>>>> Maxi
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Il gio 3 feb 2022, 17:04 Jeroen Ticheler <jeroen.ticheler at geocat.net>
> ha scritto:
> >>>>> Hi Maxi,
> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your view on this. Although I sympathize with the
> idea of a whole community having a say in how conference locations is
> selected and organized, I’m not in favor of the process you propose.
> Reading LOI’s and full proposals takes a lot of time and voting a lot of
> thought and discussion. It really helps to have previous conference
> organizers on the committee as well. At the same time I also think the
> committee should be open to other members (I used to be a member long time
> ago while I never chaired a conference, and I don’t think that mattered
> honestly).
> >>>>> Concluding, I think selecting a conference / proposal should be
> taken care of by the committee, not by all charter members or the whole
> community. Maybe the board or the charter members should decide for an
> elected committee similar to what we already do with the board elections.
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> Jeroen
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jeroen Ticheler
> >>>>> Mobile: +31681286572
> >>>>> E-mail: jeroen.ticheler at geocat.net
> >>>>> https://www.geocat.net
> >>>>> Veenderweg 13
> >>>>> 6721 WD Bennekom
> >>>>> The Netherlands
> >>>>> Tel: +31318416664
> >>>>> On 3 Feb 2022, 16:15 +0100, Massimiliano Cannata <
> massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch>, wrote:
> >>>>>> Dear conference community,
> >>>>>> why is the community left out from this decision / discussion?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The FOSS4G conference is a property of OSGeo, and therefore of the
> community as a whole.
> >>>>>> The conference committee has not been elected so cannot decide in
> representation of the community.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As an OPEN community I strongly believe that all the charter
> members (at least) should have a word or vote on such an important decision.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I hope this message is not ignored..
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Maxi
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Il giorno gio 3 feb 2022 alle ore 15:04 Eli Adam <
> eadam at co.lincoln.or.us> ha scritto:
> >>>>>> Hi all (particularly voting committee members),
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The current FOSS4G structure has a new LOC every year starting more
> or less from scratch (some things like mailing lists and seed money are
> passed on).  Over the years, many people have commented on the load of work
> this creates for the LOC, the general inefficiency, the risk, and the
> burnout.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you consider yourself a voting member of the committee (
> https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Conference_Committee#Current_Members), please
> indicate your preference on this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is an informal poll to see if the conference committee wants
> to:
> >>>>>> 1. Keep it the way it is and not change anything
> >>>>>> 2. Change the FOSS4G organizing structure to something else
> (discussion of what we change it to can come later if people want to pursue
> this).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As I've expressed several times, I prefer option 2, changing the
> FOSS4G organizing structure.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for your time and participation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best regards, Eli
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Conference_dev mailing list
> >>>>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> >>>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Massimiliano Cannata
> >>>>>> Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica
> >>>>>> Responsabile settore Geomatica
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Istituto scienze della Terra
> >>>>>> Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design
> >>>>>> Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana
> >>>>>> Campus Mendrisio, Via Flora Ruchat-Roncati 15
> >>>>>> CH – 6850 Mendrisio
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14
> >>>>>> Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09
> >>>>>> massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch
> >>>>>> www.supsi.ch/ist
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Conference_dev mailing list
> >>>>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> >>>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Conference_dev mailing list
> >>>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> >>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Conference_dev mailing list
> >>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> >>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Conference_dev mailing list
> >>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> >>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Discuss mailing list
> >> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org
> >> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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