[OSGeo-Discuss] Mailing lists to discourse migration

Tue Jan 2 10:12:22 PST 2024

In case we decide to migrate, I was wondering what kind of effort is
required from a current mailing list (mailman2) user to switch to discourse
if they want to keep using it as a mailing list. E.g., would they need to
login first (potentially create a new account?) and then set anything from
the discourse interface? I understand this is all new, so instructions may
not be available yet, but I am just trying to understand what kind of
burden the transition represents for a regular user.

Thanks,
Anna

On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 3:29 AM Regina Obe via Discuss <
discuss at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> > On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 09:52:35AM +1100, Bruce Bannerman via Discuss
> > wrote:
> > >    Apart from these few emails telling me that a move to something
> called
> > >    Discourse is happening, I have not seen any discussion on our lists
> > >    explaining the pros and cons of such a move.
> > >    I find this lack of community engagement on this issue to be
> troubling.
> > >    This does not seem to be a very open source community way of making
> such
> > a
> > >    significant move.
> >
> > I feel the same and ask every OSGeo member with responsibility over
> > infrastructure to use this mailing list more as this is the "place"
> > with the most foundation members.
> >
>
> First of all, this IS THE DISCUSSION.  We've only moved one mailing list.
> We are just encouraging people to try it out
> first by allowing us to mirror their lists.  No harm in that I see. Most
> likely the lists that will move first are those with not that many people,
> and who are dissatisfied with mail lists like some of the QGIS users groups.
>
> OpenStreetMap put together a nice intro, which I'm hoping we can pattern
> our intro after:
>
>
> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/how-to-use-this-forum-for-new-users/314/9
>
> which links to this discussion about pros and cons of mailing lists vs.
> Discourse
>
>
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/why-use-discourse-instead-of-a-email-mailing-list/54298
>
>
> My impetus for wanting to move is people asking for it, and complaining
> about how mailing lists don't work
> for people who want only casual involvement.
>
> Personally I hate mailing lists so they don't work for me.  I only have
> discuss in digest mode cause most of the topics don't interest me.
> I only subscribe to a few mailing lists, but I do see with discourse, I
> can at least peak into others and watch specific topics, and be selectively
> emailed in only things that interest me or if someone mentions my name.
>
> We need to move either to Mailman3 or Discourse - end of story.  Mailman2
> is dead and in looking at what we get with Mailman3, effort to move,
> and all the people screaming over the years for discourse
> https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/2306
> , and seeing the success of discourse for projects such as OpenStreetMap
> https://community.openstreetmap.org/ , Gnome, I'm leaning heavily toward
> Discourse is the best solution
> for most and most flexible to configure.
>
> * It will allow people who only want to interact via Email only  to still
> do so
>
> That is not to say there aren't issues with how it handles emails we need
> to work out, which Sandro has made clear, but at least he's trying, so I
> can't complain about him too much.
> https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3072
>
> * It will allow people to just post a question and only follow the
> discussion about their question -- I know sounds selfish, but FOSS is about
> scratching your own itch, and hanging around for longer when you decide
> these people are cool and what they talk about is cool.
>
> * It has integration with ActivityPub, thus allowing discussions to flow
> thru to channels like mastodon if wanted. We've been experimenting with
> that and it's been pretty cool so far and I hope we can experiment with
> more facets of discourse, like the language translation of forum questions
> etc.
>
>
> > The introduction of so many new/different communication channels
> resulted in
> > this fragmentation leaving people with this feeling of being excluded,
> which is to
> > be avoided.
> >
> > >    Personally, what we have now has been working nicely for me for
> close on
> > >    20 years.
> >
> What different channels?  We have matrix (which largely replaces IRC and
> allows people on slack to interact with people on Matrix and IRC),
> Discourse I am hoping to replace Mailman with to satisfy the mailing list
> crowd of people and begin to satisfy the needs of others with no patience
> for mailing lists, who relied on Nabble for their interaction (which nabble
> is now dead).
> (so this is about reducing fragmentation in my mind, not increasing it).
> It's about bridging the gap between the old timers and newcomers (just as
> Matrix did for IRC/Slack/etc)
>
> We are not forcing anyone's hands at this point.  I expect we will live
> with both Mailman2 and Discourse at least for the rest of the year, and
> perhaps longer.
>
>
> > Same for me. This is something new generations probably consider like a
> reason
> > to change (20 years, you oldies!) but I really think email is still the
> most open and
> > available and configuratble communication channel for everyone. I'm 100%
> sure
> > blind people can read and write email just fine, and I know first person
> that I can
> > read and write email even from a place where internet connection quality
> is
> > poor, and from machines which are not very powerful, and I think this is
> very
> > important if we want to be inclusive.
> >
> > >    The lists have been very quiet for quite a while now, but that is a
> > >    community engagement issue. It is not something that technology will
> > >    magically fix.
> >
> > This is only partially true: I've seen a lot of people who are being very
> > partecipative BUT do not interact on the mailing lists, even people
> having
> > responsibilty on the OSGeo infrastructure have been expressing a form of
> dislike
> > for mailing lists, for reasons we cannot pretend not to see.
> >
> and I'm one of those Infrastructure people who feel a bit dissatisfied
> with mailing lists only 😊
>
>
> > I for one only very recently finally got back to manage my own email and
> I'm
> > seeing again the problems associated with doing so. This does not mean
> the
> > same problems do not exist with other systems, but we should try to
> understand
> > the needs of our user base and try to help with providing solutions.
> >
> > The above said: I'm also disappointed by not seeing partecipation in the
> effort
> > which is required to setup a new service (Discourse) from the very
> people who
> > loudly asked for it. Let's all please remember that infrastructures need
> to be
> > maintained so please don't ask what OSGeo can do for you ("I want
> service X")
> > but rather ask what you can do for OSGeo ("I want to help maintaining
> service
> > X").
> >
> > Thank you for reading so far (short messages are also a kind of
> technology some
> > prefer to avoid long messages like mine ;)
> >
> > --strk;
>
> I was also hoping a bit more help in people getting involved, especially
> those who said they wanted this.
> To help write out the intro to newcomers and raise their hand "Yes, move
> us".
> I'm hoping it's just cause I sprung this over the holidays, that only a
> few of those folks have shown interest.
> But that said, I was a bit skeptical at first, but now reviewing all
> discourse does I think it's a good idea, and I'm willing to see it thru.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Regina
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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