[GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability

Tue Sep 19 08:35:05 EDT 2006

I couldnt agree more with the previous postings.  GIS is about concepts, not
about learning which buttons get you to an end result.  Given infinity, a
monkey could write a work of Shakespeare.  Given even less time, a monkey
could press enough buttons to perform "GIS Analysis" using the ESRI suite.

On a previous post someone replied with something that has really stuck with
me.  It may have been Dylan. (quote not verbatim) "Using a computer graphics
package does not make one an artist.  Using a word processor does not make
one a writer.  Using GIS software does not make one a GIS Professional".
The key here is that GIS is about the concepts and analytical capabilities,
the chosen software is just the tool to do it.  GRASS is an excellent tool
for many reasons.

Now for the bad news:  Living in the US where ESRI is dominant (easily seen
on job postings), I would have to unfortunately admit that it is important
to at a minimum be able to say you have used ESRI ArcMap when job hunting.
Unfortunately (from a US perspective), much like "computers" are synonymous
with Windows, GIS is synonymous with ESRI.

Now for the big "However...".   For companies/agencies looking to start up
GIS or take it to the next level besides simple editing and map printing, or
even migrate away from an ESRI suite due to the enormous yearly "maintenance
fees" & bugs, GRASS and other open source GIS and databases have *huge*
advantages.  From experience I can say that since ESRI re-wrote their GIS in
2000 to "ArcMap", the quality of the software has tanked. In retrospect I am
thankful, because it is what drove me to open source GIS like GRASS. One
obvious drawback to ArcMap is the massive costs. Take the startup costs
alone (these are from memory and may be dated they are *not* exact quotes):
ArcMap Arc/Info = $14,000USD.  Raster analysis extension = $2,500USD.
2.5(3d) analysis extension = $2,500USD. (those extensions may be
$5,000)

Looking at it from a student's perspective, think of how much power is given
to the student to be able to go to an agency or company and say "ArcMap...
yeah I can use that software.  But if you really want cost savings and a
robust, scalable GIS, you might want to consider GRASS GIS on Linux or Mac.
The initial cost savings are in the tens of thousands of dollars, the
quality of software is far superior, and there are no yearly maintenance
fees."  That is empowering and enriching students rather than robbing them.

So, the answer has two "yes's".  Yes, due to market saturation (in the US),
students should be equipped with the knowledge to push ESRI buttons.  And
yes, learning GIS concepts and applications for real world applications
should be done with open source software GIS such as GRASS as it causes the
student to come away with a solid understanding of what GIS is and how it
works.  Also given the fact that GRASS is part of many open source GIS
solutions, students can then explore other open source GIS software like
GDAL/OGR, Quantum GIS, Mapserver, and PostGIS/PostgreSQL.

Take the semester to teach GIS concepts with GRASS GIS on Mac/Linux.  Then
take a day to show how to push buttons on Windows/ArcMap.  Be sure to
explain open source advantages and how to join the revolution.  Then let the
students make the decision.  It will be an easy one.

Mark

On 9/18/06, Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson at newcastle.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Hello Tom, Michael and others
>
> Thanks for your comments on this.  I was somewhat baffled by the external
> examiner's report, as student feedback had been very positive on the
> course.  Perhaps he thought GRASS was only used in education?  I did
> demonstrate a few ArGIS features to the students at the end of the course,
> but it was noticable that only one of them wanted to use it when it came
> to
> their projects, and the rest stuck to GRASS.
>
> Best wishes
> Roy
>
> At 10:43 18/09/06 -0400, Thomas Adams wrote:
> >Michael,
> >
> >Completely agree. One might also go to
> >http://grass.itc.it/community/index.php to see the international use of
> >GRASS GIS and to http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ for the use of GMT, which
> >many GRASS GIS users also use extensively. The assertion that GRASS is
> >not used outside of Newcastle is an openly inflammatory and contentious
> >remark and clearly not grounded in fact.
> >
> >So, one would also presume that UNIX, Linux, and MacOS X should not be
> >used in an academic setting for the same reason, that is, that
> >MS-Windows dominates, so…?
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >Michael Barton wrote:
> >> Roy,
> >>
> >> You'll probably get a lot of response on this, but I'll add a bit here.
> In
> >> terms of not being known outside Newcastle, take a look at the
> >> user/developer map on the GRASS web site. I'm in Arizona, USA--quite a
> ways
> >> from Newcastle--and we are using GRASS in research projects and
> teaching it
> >> to students here.
> >>
> >> Because many companies use ESRI products, it will be useful for
> students
> >> seeking employment in those companies to have some familiarity with
> ESRI
> >> software. However, they will go farther if they have a good
> understanding of
> >> GIS concepts, and especially how to use GIS to solve problems, than
> simply
> >> the techniques of how to push which buttons. People who actually know
> what
> >> to use GIS for, can get up to speed in different systems pretty fast.
> So an
> >> overview of different software, including ESRI, might be a good
> addition to
> >> a course that uses GRASS to more effectively teach how to use GIS.
> >>
> >> Also, those who are employed in places where the results are more
> important
> >> than the software used might do better with GRASS--e.g. those focusing
> on
> >> research or in consulting.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
> >> School of Human Evolution & Social Change
> >> Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
> >> Arizona State University
> >>
> >> phone: 480-965-6213
> >> fax: 480-965-7671
> >> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton<http://www.public.asu.edu/%7Ecmbarton>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: Roy Sanderson < R.A.Sanderson at newcastle.ac.uk>
> >>> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
> >>> To: <grassuser at grass.itc.it >
> >>> Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability
> >>>
> >>> Hello
> >>>
> >>> Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc
> students,
> >>> from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0.  Whilst the students had had no prior
> exposure
> >>> to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through
> their
> >>> work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
> >>> concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.
> >>>
> >>> However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised the
> >>> change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known outside Newcastle" and
> that
> >>> it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation.  The
> >>> examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like
> ArcGIS or
> >>> MapInfo in the GIS module.
> >>>
> >>> It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures
> on
> >>> the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large
> commercial
> >>> companies etc.
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks
> >>> Roy
> >>>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -------
> >>> Roy Sanderson
> >>> Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
> >>> Devonshire Building
> >>> University of Newcastle
> >>> Newcastle upon Tyne
> >>> NE1 7RU
> >>> United Kingdom
> >>>
> >>> Tel: +44 191 246 4835
> >>> Fax: +44 191 246 4999
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
> >>> r.a.sanderson at newcastle.ac.uk
> >>>
> >>>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> grassuser mailing list
> >> grassuser at grass.itc.it
> >> http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >Thomas E Adams
> >National Weather Service
> >Ohio River Forecast Center
> >1901 South State Route 134
> >Wilmington, OH 45177
> >
> >EMAIL: thomas.adams at noaa.gov
> >
> >VOICE: 937-383-0528
> >FAX:   937-383-0033
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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