[mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project

Stephen Woodbridge woodbri at swoodbridge.com
Wed Apr 1 18:02:36 EDT 2009


Another problem is how to deal with mapscript!!!!!
Somehow I can not see running a JVM in PHP to get PHP/Mapscript

and what about all the other languages.

-Steve W

Paul Ramsey wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]
> <Tom.Kralidis at ec.gc.ca> wrote:
>>> Daniel Morissette
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 01 April 2009 16:20
>>> Subject: Re: [mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer
>>> enhancements/refactoring project
>>>
>>> Then the MapServer Enterprise gets its real meaning!
>>> Hoping that you'll see the light soon.
>> I think this would call for a complete analysis of cost/return on
>> investment on a change like this.  And what the problems are (in detail)
>> that are driving this proposal.
> 
> Sometimes it's not problems that drive things, it's plain old money. I
> said it before, and I'll say it again (because I really like saying
> it): rebuilding Mapserver in Java is like tearing down Notre Dame and
> rebuilding it in Jello.  By extension, wrapping the Mapserver core in
> Java is like wrapping Notre Dame in Jello.
> 
> Re-factoring only leads to tears. Porting leads to suicide pacts.
> Let's not go there.
> 
> P
> 
> 
>> ..Tom
>>
>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> Kralidis,Tom [Ontario] wrote:
>>>> -dev: see thread below.  I have no choice but to bring in -dev here.
>>>>
>>>> Daniel: you have got to be kidding me.
>>>>
>>>> Coming from a non-Java environment, this would represent a major
>>>> showstopper and end of use (and commitment) to MapServer
>>> from myself
>>>> and over 100 install bases.  A change as drastic as this
>>> will no doubt
>>>> crush confidence in foss4g to those I have been working
>>> with so hard
>>>> to build MapServer and foss4g.
>>>>
>>>> For the last 10 years.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a lot!
>>>>
>>>> Regardless, I think this thread is best discussed with the
>>> community
>>>> who should be involved in this discussion.
>>>>
>>>> ..Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:warmerdam at pobox.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 01 April 2009 15:37
>>>> To: Daniel Morissette
>>>> Cc: Paul Ramsey; thomas bonfort; jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com;
>>>> yassefa at dmsolutions.ca; Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]; hobu.inc at gmail.com;
>>>> pnaciona at gmail.com; szekerest at gmail.com;
>>> umberto.nicoletti at gmail.com;
>>>> hobu at hobu.net; woodbri at swoodbridge.com
>>>> Subject: Re: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project
>>>>
>>>> Daniel,
>>>>
>>>> It's funny that you mention this.  I recently had an expression of
>>>> interest from a client to rewrite GDAL (but not OGR yet)
>>> completely in
>>>> Java.  My first reaction was to take a pass but such an
>>> effort would
>>>> be a good match with a MapServer rewrite in Java.  If my
>>> client will
>>>> pay for the GDAL rewrite into Java, would you be able to
>>> set aside a
>>>> man-year or so of funding for me to also rewrite OGR in Java?
>>>>
>>>> Luckily we can use the GeoTools coordinate system implementation in
>>>> place of PROJ.4, so we shouldn't need to rewrite all of that.
>>>>
>>>> This level of funded work should take me comfortably through the
>>>> economic meltdown!
>>>>
>>>> PS. Paul, tell us what you really think!
>>>>
>>>> Paul Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> I've head enough great potential to last a lifetime. I'll
>>> stick with
>>>>> things that actually work. Re-writing Mapserver in Java is like
>>>>> tearing down Notre Dame and re-building it in Jello. You
>>> and the rest
>>>>> of the Jello-heads stay away from my church.
>>>>>
>>>>> P.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Daniel Morissette wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>> Daniel,
>>>>>>> That's quite a big change you're proposing. Not that I have
>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>> against Java per se or XML (well, maybe I have something against
>>>>>>> XML) but I don't want to see either taking over the Mapserver
>>>>>>> project, money or no money. If it's not written in
>>>>>>> high-performance,
>>>>>>> highly-painful C I don't want any part of it! Perhaps
>>> you ate some
>>>>>>> bad  > poutine, because the whole idea is off the rocker.
>>>>>> C'mon Paul... of all people I would have thought that you
>>> would have
>>>>>> been the first person to see the great potential in this move!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I wrote before, you pick your camp, but others have made the
>>>>>> right
>>>>>> decision already.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daniel Morissette wrote:
>>>>>>> The baby has grown, it's an adult now, and getting quite
>>> mature, so
>>>>>>> I wouldn't call that selling the baby but actually letting it
>>>>>>> explore new grounds.
>>>>>>> Think of it this way: the power and simplicity of
>>> MapServer's core
>>>>>>> algorithms combined with the modern architecture of the Java
>>>>>>> language and development tools.
>>>>>>> Isn't it about time that we move away from the command-line
>>>>>>> debuggers and malloc's? It's the 21st century guys...
>>> let the IDE
>>>>>>> and the garbage collector do it all for you. It's been proven
>>>>>>> several times that the performance is no longer an issue
>>> with Java
>>>>>>> now so why stick with an old language from the 70's when
>>> we can do
>>>>>>> 10 times as much with a modern toolkit?
>>>>>>> We'll probably go ahead whether you're on board or not
>>> (I got one
>>>>>>> private reply from a MapServer dev who says he's on
>>> board already),
>>>>>>> so you choose your camp... continue to pull your hair
>>> with the old
>>>>>>> stuff or have fun taking the MapServer name to the next
>>> level with
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> modern architecture.
>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>> thomas bonfort wrote:
>>>>>>>> Daniel,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seeing you are the "mother of MapServer" I would have
>>> hoped that
>>>>>>>> you were not so keen in selling your baby to the first
>>>>>>>> deep-pocketed java crackhead, even if I now that times
>>> are rough
>>>>>>>> right now and that it's probably more difficult to turn down an
>>>>>>>> offer that will keep you fed for a confortable amount of time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would also have preferred that my first vote as a PSC
>>> member was
>>>>>>>> not a veto, as I cannot imagine myself going the java way with
>>>> mapserver.
>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thomas
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 20:14, Daniel Morissette
>>>>>>>> <dmorissette at mapgears.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Guys,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've been contacted by a potential client who would be
>>> willing to
>>>>>>>>> fund a complete refactoring of MapServer. It seems
>>> that they got
>>>>>>>>> wind of our discussions at the TO Code Sprint and
>>> would like to
>>>>>>>>> help with some of that, more specifically:
>>>>>>>>> - XML mapfiles
>>>>>>>>> - performance work driven in part by GeoServer which
>>> is getting
>>>>>>>>> very close to MapServer in both performance and map rendering
>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>> - rendering plugin architecture that Thomas is working on
>>>>>>>>> - WFS-T support
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They've got enough budget to get about 20 devs working on this
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> a year, but there are two big issues in my mind: they have a
>>>>>>>>> tight
>>>>>>>>> deadline, they need this done within a year, and they are
>>>>>>>>> currently a Java shop so they require that we deliver a Java
>>>>>>>>> solution (I know, I know). They considered GeoServer
>>> but they got
>>>>>>>>> turned down by the guys at OpenGeo who would not let
>>> them get the
>>>>>>>>> architectural changes they wanted for any amount of money, so
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> figured they might have more luck with us. Oh, there is a 3rd
>>>>>>>>> thing:
>>>>>>>>> they would require that the code be closed for at least a year
>>>>>>>>> after the final deliverable before they let us release
>>> anything
>>>>>>>>> publicly...
>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>> related to their own internal policies and business
>>> plan... not
>>>>>>>>> ideal but at least in the end the code should be opened up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not too keen on a switch to Java, but it seems that the
>>>>>>>>> performance is no longer an issue as the GeoServer guys have
>>>>>>>>> demonstrated with their benchmarks, and this would
>>> solve many of
>>>>>>>>> our issues dealing with XML and Web Services (isn't
>>> XML the way
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the future anyway?). If the money is there it's hard
>>> to turn it
>>>>>>>>> down, and it could be fun to take over GeoServer on its own
>>>>>>>>> ground... Java!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So far I have 4 Java dev's on board. I am writing this
>>> to you to
>>>>>>>>> seek an expression of interest since I'd need at least another
>>>>>>>>> 4-5
>>>>>>>>> experienced MapServer devs to undertake this project.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Who's interested?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Paul Ramsey
>>>>> pramsey at cleverelephant.ca
>>>>> +1 250 885 0632
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Daniel Morissette
>>> http://www.mapgears.com/
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapserver-dev
>>>
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