[mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project

Wed Apr 1 18:17:03 EDT 2009

Benoit,

There's a big community around java in the geospatial world which cannot be
ignored easily. I do also think that .NET rocks, but java is more widely
used at the moment. I think the real benefit of this change would be to
establish a feasible object model (based on the MapServer implementation and
features) which could easily transformed to a compatible java or .NET
classes to provide compatible implementations and cover the widest audience.

Best regards,

Tamas

2009/4/2 Benoit Andrieu <bea at ixsea.com>

> Isn't Java already dead ??
> Everybody knows that .NET is taking a nice advantage on Java...
> I think the future is in .NET Framework 4.0 and its PPL (Parallel Pattern
> Library) !
> .NET supports everything that Java does and it does better. Some have seen
> a performance benefice up to 10x with C# over Java !!
> I say we take the money, make a port of Mapserver to C#/MC++ 4.0 and
> provide a wrapper in Java to make everybody happy.
> With Mono working on Linux, we won't have any problems running the
> Mapserver new generation on several platforms !!
>
> By the way, isn't Microsoft using Mapserver for their VirtualEarth backend
> ?? We could even ask for a sponsorship !!!
>
> Don't take the way of the already elder Java and go on with the ever
> shining .NET !
>
> Who's in ?
>
> ________________________________________________
> "All cats love     fish    but hate to get their paws wet."
>
> > -----Message reçu-----
> > De: Paul Ramsey <pramsey at opengeo.org>
> > À: "Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]" <Tom.Kralidis at ec.gc.ca>
> > Cc: mapserver-dev at lists.osgeo.org, Daniel Morissette <
> dmorissette at mapgears.com>
> > Date: 01/04/2009 22:53
> > Objet: Re: [mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]
> > <Tom.Kralidis at ec.gc.ca> wrote:
> > >> Daniel Morissette
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, 01 April 2009 16:20
> > >> Subject: Re: [mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer
> > >> enhancements/refactoring project
> > >>
> > >> Then the MapServer Enterprise gets its real meaning!
> > >> Hoping that you'll see the light soon.
> > >
> > > I think this would call for a complete analysis of cost/return on
> > > investment on a change like this.  And what the problems are (in
> detail)
> > > that are driving this proposal.
> >
> > Sometimes it's not problems that drive things, it's plain old money. I
> > said it before, and I'll say it again (because I really like saying
> > it): rebuilding Mapserver in Java is like tearing down Notre Dame and
> > rebuilding it in Jello.  By extension, wrapping the Mapserver core in
> > Java is like wrapping Notre Dame in Jello.
> >
> > Re-factoring only leads to tears. Porting leads to suicide pacts.
> > Let's not go there.
> >
> > P
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ..Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >> Daniel
> > >>
> > >> Kralidis,Tom [Ontario] wrote:
> > >> > -dev: see thread below.  I have no choice but to bring in -dev here.
> > >> >
> > >> > Daniel: you have got to be kidding me.
> > >> >
> > >> > Coming from a non-Java environment, this would represent a major
> > >> > showstopper and end of use (and commitment) to MapServer
> > >> from myself
> > >> > and over 100 install bases.  A change as drastic as this
> > >> will no doubt
> > >> > crush confidence in foss4g to those I have been working
> > >> with so hard
> > >> > to build MapServer and foss4g.
> > >> >
> > >> > For the last 10 years.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks a lot!
> > >> >
> > >> > Regardless, I think this thread is best discussed with the
> > >> community
> > >> > who should be involved in this discussion.
> > >> >
> > >> > ..Tom
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:warmerdam at pobox.com]
> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, 01 April 2009 15:37
> > >> > To: Daniel Morissette
> > >> > Cc: Paul Ramsey; thomas bonfort; jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com;
> > >> > yassefa at dmsolutions.ca; Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]; hobu.inc at gmail.com;
> > >> > pnaciona at gmail.com; szekerest at gmail.com;
> > >> umberto.nicoletti at gmail.com;
> > >> > hobu at hobu.net; woodbri at swoodbridge.com
> > >> > Subject: Re: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project
> > >> >
> > >> > Daniel,
> > >> >
> > >> > It's funny that you mention this.  I recently had an expression of
> > >> > interest from a client to rewrite GDAL (but not OGR yet)
> > >> completely in
> > >> > Java.  My first reaction was to take a pass but such an
> > >> effort would
> > >> > be a good match with a MapServer rewrite in Java.  If my
> > >> client will
> > >> > pay for the GDAL rewrite into Java, would you be able to
> > >> set aside a
> > >> > man-year or so of funding for me to also rewrite OGR in Java?
> > >> >
> > >> > Luckily we can use the GeoTools coordinate system implementation in
> > >> > place of PROJ.4, so we shouldn't need to rewrite all of that.
> > >> >
> > >> > This level of funded work should take me comfortably through the
> > >> > economic meltdown!
> > >> >
> > >> > PS. Paul, tell us what you really think!
> > >> >
> > >> > Paul Ramsey wrote:
> > >> >> I've head enough great potential to last a lifetime. I'll
> > >> stick with
> > >> >> things that actually work. Re-writing Mapserver in Java is like
> > >> >> tearing down Notre Dame and re-building it in Jello. You
> > >> and the rest
> > >> >> of the Jello-heads stay away from my church.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> P.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Daniel Morissette wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> Paul Ramsey wrote:
> > >> >>>> Daniel,
> > >> >>>> That's quite a big change you're proposing. Not that I have
> > >> >>>> anything
> > >> >
> > >> >>>> against Java per se or XML (well, maybe I have something against
> > >> >>>> XML) but I don't want to see either taking over the Mapserver
> > >> >>>> project, money or no money. If it's not written in
> > >> >>>> high-performance,
> > >> >
> > >> >>>> highly-painful C I don't want any part of it! Perhaps
> > >> you ate some
> > >> >>>> bad  > poutine, because the whole idea is off the rocker.
> > >> >>> C'mon Paul... of all people I would have thought that you
> > >> would have
> > >> >>> been the first person to see the great potential in this move!
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> As I wrote before, you pick your camp, but others have made the
> > >> >>> right
> > >> >
> > >> >>> decision already.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Daniel
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Daniel Morissette wrote:
> > >> >>>> The baby has grown, it's an adult now, and getting quite
> > >> mature, so
> > >> >>>> I wouldn't call that selling the baby but actually letting it
> > >> >>>> explore new grounds.
> > >> >>>> Think of it this way: the power and simplicity of
> > >> MapServer's core
> > >> >>>> algorithms combined with the modern architecture of the Java
> > >> >>>> language and development tools.
> > >> >>>> Isn't it about time that we move away from the command-line
> > >> >>>> debuggers and malloc's? It's the 21st century guys...
> > >> let the IDE
> > >> >>>> and the garbage collector do it all for you. It's been proven
> > >> >>>> several times that the performance is no longer an issue
> > >> with Java
> > >> >>>> now so why stick with an old language from the 70's when
> > >> we can do
> > >> >>>> 10 times as much with a modern toolkit?
> > >> >>>> We'll probably go ahead whether you're on board or not
> > >> (I got one
> > >> >>>> private reply from a MapServer dev who says he's on
> > >> board already),
> > >> >>>> so you choose your camp... continue to pull your hair
> > >> with the old
> > >> >>>> stuff or have fun taking the MapServer name to the next
> > >> level with
> > >> >>>> a
> > >> >
> > >> >>>> modern architecture.
> > >> >>>> Daniel
> > >> >>>> thomas bonfort wrote:
> > >> >>>>> Daniel,
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Seeing you are the "mother of MapServer" I would have
> > >> hoped that
> > >> >>>>> you were not so keen in selling your baby to the first
> > >> >>>>> deep-pocketed java crackhead, even if I now that times
> > >> are rough
> > >> >>>>> right now and that it's probably more difficult to turn down an
> > >> >>>>> offer that will keep you fed for a confortable amount of time.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> I would also have preferred that my first vote as a PSC
> > >> member was
> > >> >>>>> not a veto, as I cannot imagine myself going the java way with
> > >> > mapserver.
> > >> >>>>> regards,
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> thomas
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 20:14, Daniel Morissette
> > >> >>>>> <dmorissette at mapgears.com> wrote:
> > >> >>>>>> Guys,
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> I've been contacted by a potential client who would be
> > >> willing to
> > >> >>>>>> fund a complete refactoring of MapServer. It seems
> > >> that they got
> > >> >>>>>> wind of our discussions at the TO Code Sprint and
> > >> would like to
> > >> >>>>>> help with some of that, more specifically:
> > >> >>>>>> - XML mapfiles
> > >> >>>>>> - performance work driven in part by GeoServer which
> > >> is getting
> > >> >>>>>> very close to MapServer in both performance and map rendering
> > >> >>>>>> quality
> > >> >>>>>> - rendering plugin architecture that Thomas is working on
> > >> >>>>>> - WFS-T support
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> They've got enough budget to get about 20 devs working on this
> > >> >>>>>> for
> > >> >
> > >> >>>>>> a year, but there are two big issues in my mind: they have a
> > >> >>>>>> tight
> > >> >
> > >> >>>>>> deadline, they need this done within a year, and they are
> > >> >>>>>> currently a Java shop so they require that we deliver a Java
> > >> >>>>>> solution (I know, I know). They considered GeoServer
> > >> but they got
> > >> >>>>>> turned down by the guys at OpenGeo who would not let
> > >> them get the
> > >> >>>>>> architectural changes they wanted for any amount of money, so
> > >> >>>>>> they
> > >> >
> > >> >>>>>> figured they might have more luck with us. Oh, there is a 3rd
> > >> >>>>>> thing:
> > >> >>>>>> they would require that the code be closed for at least a year
> > >> >>>>>> after the final deliverable before they let us release
> > >> anything
> > >> >>>>>> publicly...
> > >> >>>>>> something
> > >> >>>>>> related to their own internal policies and business
> > >> plan... not
> > >> >>>>>> ideal but at least in the end the code should be opened up.
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> I'm not too keen on a switch to Java, but it seems that the
> > >> >>>>>> performance is no longer an issue as the GeoServer guys have
> > >> >>>>>> demonstrated with their benchmarks, and this would
> > >> solve many of
> > >> >>>>>> our issues dealing with XML and Web Services (isn't
> > >> XML the way
> > >> >>>>>> of
> > >> >
> > >> >>>>>> the future anyway?). If the money is there it's hard
> > >> to turn it
> > >> >>>>>> down, and it could be fun to take over GeoServer on its own
> > >> >>>>>> ground... Java!
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> So far I have 4 Java dev's on board. I am writing this
> > >> to you to
> > >> >>>>>> seek an expression of interest since I'd need at least another
> > >> >>>>>> 4-5
> > >> >
> > >> >>>>>> experienced MapServer devs to undertake this project.
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> Who's interested?
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> Daniel
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> --
> > >> >> Paul Ramsey
> > >> >> pramsey at cleverelephant.ca
> > >> >> +1 250 885 0632
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Daniel Morissette
> > >> http://www.mapgears.com/
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> mapserver-dev mailing list
> > >> mapserver-dev at lists.osgeo.org
> > >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapserver-dev
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > mapserver-dev at lists.osgeo.org
> > > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapserver-dev
> > >
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