[OSGeo Oceania] Relevance of email lists [was: Re: A discussion on openness]

Sun Dec 6 19:05:21 PST 2020

Thanks Bruce. These are good points and I agree with all of them.
I fully encourage the use of mailing lists for these exact reasons.

On Mon, 7 Dec 2020 at 13:43, Bruce Bannerman <
bruce.bannerman.osgeo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Edoardo and Phil,
>
> As to email discussion lists, they are very important for open
> communications within open communities. For example, they:
>
>
>    - allow for open discussion on issues;
>    - provide a permanent record of what happened with a given issue
>    (provided that the archives are maintained and not corrupted);
>    - allow people who are not native speakers of the list’s language time
>    to digest and reflect on a given message;
>    - Similarly, they allow people who are time poor to catch up on issues
>    in their own time;
>    - allow people from different time zones to participate in
>    discussions. We have list members from around the world.
>
>
> I could go on, but I think that I’ve made my point.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:17, Edoardo Neerhut <eneerhut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your thoughtful response Phil. I share much of your positivity
> and appreciation for all the board has achieved.
>
> I agree that managing the myriad of communication channels is
> difficult and time consuming. I have a love/hate relationship with the
> mailing lists, but they seem to be the most open, universal mechanism to
> disseminate information and have discussions. *Prediction*: *The year is
> 3020 and we're still sending emails to mailing lists.*
>
> My own conclusion with communication is that people should communicate
> wherever they like, but you have one central, open place for
> official/important communication and that would be the mailing list. Part
> of the conversation here seems to be: what is official and important? Did
> we make things as open as we should have?
>
> These things are hard in a volunteer community, so this is not a criticism
> of anyone, but a reflection on the ways we can continually improve.
>
> On Mon, 7 Dec 2020 at 10:18, Phil Wyatt <phil at wyatt-family.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Folks
>>
>>
>>
>> *TLDR:*
>>
>> COVID-19! I am happy. The board are doing their difficult job in these
>> initial stages. Communication in this day and age is bloody hard! Things
>> will settle down.
>>
>>
>>
>> *My experience*
>>
>> I have been a low key bystander during the formation of OSGEO Oceania. I
>> am retired and have lots of time on my hands to check multiple
>> communication channels. I am an initial member having attended the
>> Melbourne conference and supported the idea of an organisation that
>> supports our region in Open Source software and OpenStreetMap.
>>
>>
>>
>> The role of the board is set out in a fairly legal and technical way and
>> I commend all those that have stood up to take on the roles, especially in
>> the formation stages of the organisation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/resources/director-tools/practical-tools-for-directors/governance-relations/role-of-the-board
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s not easy, there will be a learning a curve for many and there will
>> be frustrations, arguments and concerns as the organisation develops. *The
>> overarching thing for me is that the board does not do anything that would
>> be harmful to the community.* To date, I have not seen anything that I
>> believe has harmed the community. In the year of COVID I am just thankful
>> that you have all survived in your work lives (hopefully!) as well as
>> helping set up a vibrant regional organisation. Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are likely processes that need to be ironed out, procedures that
>> need formalising and standards set for appropriate timelines for actions
>> but these things will get sorted as the pressure eases from the initial
>> formation stage. Lets be honest, 2020 has been a year like no other and we
>> have managed to survive! Thanks again to you all for your hard work.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Openness and communication*
>>
>> Do I, as a member, need to know every aspect of the board deliberations
>> of all processes? No, I don’t, but I should have a role in helping
>> formulate and at least seeing final drafts before a board sign-off. This
>> has occurred with documents like the terms of reference. Would it be good
>> to have the minutes of meetings in one place, yes absolutely. What’s the
>> best place for those….well, I personally hate wiki’s but they seem to be
>> the norm for open organisations. I can learn to live with that but I wish
>> they had more structure and an easy way to navigate around!
>>
>>
>>
>> I follow many communication channels for various reasons…Slack, Discord,
>> Mailing lists, Email, Telegram, Zoom, Big Blue Button, Youtube streams….the
>> list is endless these days and adoption varies widely across the Oceania
>> region. This will be a challenge in the short and long term for the
>> organisation. Regions may have their own preferences for local
>> communication so subject to information being available to the wider region
>> it may well be that regions collectively put their thoughts back to the
>> board by one appropriate formal channel. Maybe the mailing list is the
>> ‘formal’ channel?
>>
>>
>>
>> *Conclusion*
>>
>> Don’t be too hard on yourselves – you are all volunteers. Yes, we all
>> need to get some structure back into our lives and OSGEO Oceania is no
>> different. Work on getting timely and regular processes in place and solid
>> regular communication to a formal channel (or two) but personally, I don’t
>> need all the minute details – *I trust the board to do no harm*!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers – Phil (aka tastrax)
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Oceania <oceania-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of *Edoardo
>> Neerhut
>> *Sent:* Sunday, 6 December 2020 10:32 PM
>> *To:* oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>> *Subject:* [OSGeo Oceania] A discussion on openness
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> *TLDR: *
>>
>> *To the current/former directors: How would you describe the
>> organisation's experience with openness and transparency?*
>>
>> *To the whole community: How do you feel? What should the board and the
>> community do more or less of?*
>>
>>
>>
>> *The context*
>>
>> There have been a number of comments made recently about transparency and
>> openness and I wanted to tease them out a bit as the end of year
>> approaches. In particular, Adam and John expressed their concerns here
>> <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/oceania-board/2020-November/000112.html>
>> and here
>> <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/oceania/2020-November/002439.html>
>> respectively, with both resigning as directors as a consequence.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is clearly an issue for further discussion. The OSGeo Oceania
>> director elections end in a few hours and regardless of the results, I am
>> very keen to hear what practical steps we should take to address these
>> concerns. Adam/John: if you have time to elaborate that would be much
>> appreciated as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> *My experience*
>>
>> I think most would agree transparency and openness should be
>> fundamental aspects to our community. What's harder is living up to them. I
>> am guilty of sending a quick Slack message or email to people for the sake
>> of expediency, but failing on transparency as a consequence.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have worked with many on the current board and feel they are all
>> wonderful, talented people, operating with the best interests of OSGeo
>> Oceania at heart. I'm optimistic about where we're at and we can go and I
>> want to thank all on the board and the wider community for getting us here.
>> Hundreds of people from across the region have been able to learn, share,
>> and connect with geospatial ideas and tools through these efforts. I
>> honestly don't believe there is a people issue here, but a fog over the
>> decision making process which we need to tease out.
>>
>>
>>
>> My read from where I stand is that there is a constant battle between
>> expediency and openness. I am still trying to understand the relationship
>> between these two things at a practical level.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Practically speaking, what should we do?*
>>
>> I am going to assume we agree that openness is fundamental to the health
>> of the organisation. If I have falsely assumed this, please correct me.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the areas we are failing, why do we think this is the case? I believe
>> everyone is operating in good faith.
>>
>>    - Take the example of meeting minutes. They went up eventually, so do
>>    we need to make sure we share responsibility more so that this happens
>>    immediately after? Could members of the community join board meetings in
>>    this role?
>>    - On board decisions, why were some decisions timely? Can we minimise
>>    that in future? Were some board members slow to make a decision? What is
>>    the expectation here from board members?
>>    - The concept of membership is still vague and I bear more
>>    responsibility for this failure than anyone. At the same time, this is
>>    something that we as a community should decide collectively. I should have
>>    done more to initiatie that conversation openly.
>>
>> These are just three examples. I'm sure there are many more.
>>
>>
>>
>> *So finally, what are the low hanging fruits? Where should the community
>> focus our efforts going forward? Why are we failing in these areas? How
>> should we address them?*
>>
>>
>>
>> We've come a long way thanks to all of you and I'm very optimistic about
>> the road ahead. How do we traverse it?
>>
>>
>>
>> Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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