[OSGeo Oceania] [EXT] Re: FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI

Wed Nov 20 14:43:44 PST 2024

Hello all

As I've mentioned previously, I'm purely an OSM mapper, not a GIS
professional of any sort, so I can't comment on them professionally, only
as far as OSM goes.

While everybody else was in talks at Hobart, I was able to sit down & have
a few good chats with Kate, Kate & Gordon, mainly about imagery.

It's *very* early days yet, but Esri have been playing with new imagery
that they're looking at trialing, & Oceania i.e. the various Pacific Island
Nations (not Oz / NZ), consisting as they do of a lot of small (ish)
islands, is very attractive to them as a test-bed! So fingers crossed that
things may happen there.

I also mentioned the Esri Clarity Beta imagery that's in OSM, which
confused them all somewhat as they didn't know what it was! Turns out,
after they did some internal digging, that it was discontinued several
years ago, so they have no idea why we're still using it?! They suggested
replacing that entire layer with their Wayback Imagery, which gives a
timeline of shots of that location.

I've passed that suggestion on to Grant Slater at the OSM Operations Group
but no reply at this stage.

So as far as I am concerned, they're good people to have on our side!

Thanks

Graeme

On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 07:54, Emma Hain via Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
wrote:

> Hi All
> Thanks to Andrew for bringing this up. Let me fall on my sword to support
> you here.
>
> For me, it was hard to swallow to have them as a sponsor but I recognised
> they were coming in under the OSM banner. However, I felt there was no
> focus by them on the work they do for OSM and GDAL, either in their keynote
> or on their stand. We also set up a panel that gave them a voice to talk
> about their involvement in OSM and I personally thought that they did not
> espouse it enough when asked.
>
> I felt overall that they failed to harness this opportunity to increase
> their open source credentials and actually reduced them considerably by not
> mentioning and deriding FOSS4G in their keynote, marketing ESRI software in
> their keynote and on their table during breaks and in personal comments to
> myself. This has had to make me feel as a program chair that I let the
> community down and overall did not make it feel like a welcoming conference
> like it usually is.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to succeed, and I am up for my mind
> being changed by disruptors. I know FOSS4G isn't all rosy - but we are here
> to solve those problems together.
>
> I feel like they have been given their chance, and their spots are still
> the same. I would not welcome them at any future conferences and would have
> to consider my options if they were to be involved.
>
> Cheers
> Em
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 7:43 AM Martin Tomko via Oceania <
> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>> Caveat: I was not there this year, regrettably. I knew ESRI is a sponsor
>> (and this was well known before the event. I neither am an ESRI user nor
>> teach with it, but have no beef, and have professional friends in the
>> global arm of the organisation.
>>
>> I do not perceive FOSS4G & SOTM as an organisation+event *against* anyone
>> /anything (again caveat, except unethical practices and conduct), but
>> rather *for* the support of FOSS4G & SOTM, and to create a community.
>>
>> Arguable, see how much ESRI (global arm, local orgs are a diff can of
>> worms) contributes to FOSS4G, especially GDAL, our pillar:
>> https://opencollective.com/gdal/contributions/793583
>>
>> Also here: https://gdal.org/en/latest/sponsors/index.html
>>
>> That is just one project, let alone OSM (noted earlier).
>> Let's match that, then throw stones. Think of the many other geo
>> companies missing in that list.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Martin
>>
>> Sent from a mobile device, apologies for typos.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Oceania <oceania-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> on behalf of Rowan via
>> Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2024 7:28:37 AM
>> *To:* Violaine <violaine at posteo.net>
>> *Cc:* oceania at lists.osgeo.org <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the
>> room ESRI
>>
>> * External email: Please exercise caution *
>> ------------------------------
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was asked the same question by some of the people that attended with
>> me. My answer to them was that the FOSS4G community often tells people that
>> major companies should care and invest in FOSS4G, Open Standards and Data
>> as ultimately they benefit from it.
>>
>> While have ESRI as a sponsor might seem strange, for me it is the message
>> landing that FOSS4G and big business can coexist and that it ultimately
>> benefits from an independent development community.
>>
>> Hope this perspective helps.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Rowan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 4:55 AM, Violaine via Oceania <
>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>> <On+Thu,+Nov+21,+2024+at+4:55+AM,+Violaine+via+Oceania+%3C%3Ca+href=>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My quick 2 cents : I felt it weird too, and bring an unconfortable
>> feeling. (It doesnt question the capacity to organize a great event thought)
>>
>> Have a lovely day all
>>
>>
>> Le 20/11/2024 à 03:23, John Bryant via Oceania a écrit :
>>
>> Thanks for bringing it up Andrew J, it hasn't sat especially well with me
>> either. It was a great event, but it seemed incongruous to have a vendor
>> selling ArcGIS at a booth at a FOSS4G.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 at 21:02, Andrew Harvey via Oceania <
>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>> Good on you for speaking up about your concerns! I'm sure you're not the
>> only one who had this thought.
>>
>> Speaking from myself here, as far as I'm aware anyone can support the
>> conference financially through sponsorship without any other requirements,
>> but it would be up to the organising committee and board if they did want
>> to add additional conditions for accepting sponsors.
>>
>> However given ESRI's involvement with OpenStreetMap (
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Esri), in particular their "Esri
>> World Imagery" which they provide to OpenStreetMap for tracing features,
>> and their OpenStreetMap powered basemaps which help make it easier for
>> people to consume OpenStreetMap data. I would say they are very much a
>> positive part of the OpenStreetMap community and with FOSS4G SotM Oceania
>> being a State of the Map conference the more financial support we have from
>> entities who want to help OpenStreetMap the stronger OSGeo Oceania and the
>> conference will be.
>>
>> Andrew Harvey
>>
>> On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, at 10:07 PM, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I hope everyone that was able to attend the FOSS4G SOTM Oceania Hobart
>> conference had a great time. I'm still very much bummed that I wasn't able
>> to make it down there and my only start at the OO conference remains
>> Melbourne in 2018. I plan on improving my numbers as best I can into the
>> future, but from the outside looking in, it looked like all those that
>> attended had a blast - well done conference committee and OO board.
>>
>> I am writing to the list because I have a question that has been bugging
>> me ever since I talked to a colleague who attended the event. That question
>> is "What's the deal with ESRI being a sponsor?". I have genuine
>> curiosity when it comes to the decision process in having them on board. I
>> understand these things take money to put on and the conference needs to
>> turn a profit, a healthy conference makes for a healthy OO which allows the
>> organisation to do many of the great things that they do. However, I think
>> this sponsorship from ESRI should be reconsidered in the future.
>>
>> Just to be clear, I am not opposed to speakers who work for ESRI coming
>> and talking, from all reports the keynote from Kate Fickas was amazing (as
>> were all the keynotes from what I hear) and these are the industry people
>> that we all crave to hear from - top job in landing that line up! But as
>> for sponsorship I feel that ESRI is putting their brand on a community that
>> a lot of us turned to when looking for refuge from them.
>>
>> I acknowledge that my opinion on this is biased as a QGIS advocate and
>> trainer. But something about this just feels off! I don't see what's in it
>> for the FOSS4G community having ESRI involved in our conferences, to me it
>> looks more of a cheap way for them to buy some good news without doing
>> anything to improve the relationship with the FOSS4G community.
>>
>> However, I know I wasn't there, and I could be wrong about the whole
>> thing. Maybe the overwhelming opinion is that it's a good thing and this is
>> a step in the right direction? I would be interested in hearing what people
>> think and even hearing from someone on the conference organising committee
>> that has more knowledge about this. Is this something the conference would
>> do again? Is there a limit to their involvement? What would have happened
>> if they were a platinum sponsor and got the primary logo placement + verbal
>> mention at opening and closing of the event?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Andrew
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