[OSGeo Oceania] [EXT] Re: FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI
Emma Hain
emmahain at gmail.com
Wed Nov 20 15:17:08 PST 2024
Hi Graeme
This is great to learn about. I think as long as we all will respect each
individual's relationship to this, and keep a healthy discussion going, our
community is only going to grow.
Cheers
Em
On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 8:43 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello all
>
> As I've mentioned previously, I'm purely an OSM mapper, not a GIS
> professional of any sort, so I can't comment on them professionally, only
> as far as OSM goes.
>
> While everybody else was in talks at Hobart, I was able to sit down & have
> a few good chats with Kate, Kate & Gordon, mainly about imagery.
>
> It's *very* early days yet, but Esri have been playing with new imagery
> that they're looking at trialing, & Oceania i.e. the various Pacific Island
> Nations (not Oz / NZ), consisting as they do of a lot of small (ish)
> islands, is very attractive to them as a test-bed! So fingers crossed that
> things may happen there.
>
> I also mentioned the Esri Clarity Beta imagery that's in OSM, which
> confused them all somewhat as they didn't know what it was! Turns out,
> after they did some internal digging, that it was discontinued several
> years ago, so they have no idea why we're still using it?! They suggested
> replacing that entire layer with their Wayback Imagery, which gives a
> timeline of shots of that location.
>
> I've passed that suggestion on to Grant Slater at the OSM Operations Group
> but no reply at this stage.
>
> So as far as I am concerned, they're good people to have on our side!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 07:54, Emma Hain via Oceania <
> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>> Thanks to Andrew for bringing this up. Let me fall on my sword to support
>> you here.
>>
>> For me, it was hard to swallow to have them as a sponsor but I recognised
>> they were coming in under the OSM banner. However, I felt there was no
>> focus by them on the work they do for OSM and GDAL, either in their keynote
>> or on their stand. We also set up a panel that gave them a voice to talk
>> about their involvement in OSM and I personally thought that they did not
>> espouse it enough when asked.
>>
>> I felt overall that they failed to harness this opportunity to increase
>> their open source credentials and actually reduced them considerably by not
>> mentioning and deriding FOSS4G in their keynote, marketing ESRI software in
>> their keynote and on their table during breaks and in personal comments to
>> myself. This has had to make me feel as a program chair that I let the
>> community down and overall did not make it feel like a welcoming conference
>> like it usually is.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to succeed, and I am up for my mind
>> being changed by disruptors. I know FOSS4G isn't all rosy - but we are here
>> to solve those problems together.
>>
>> I feel like they have been given their chance, and their spots are still
>> the same. I would not welcome them at any future conferences and would have
>> to consider my options if they were to be involved.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Em
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 7:43 AM Martin Tomko via Oceania <
>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> Caveat: I was not there this year, regrettably. I knew ESRI is a sponsor
>>> (and this was well known before the event. I neither am an ESRI user nor
>>> teach with it, but have no beef, and have professional friends in the
>>> global arm of the organisation.
>>>
>>> I do not perceive FOSS4G & SOTM as an organisation+event *against*
>>> anyone /anything (again caveat, except unethical practices and conduct),
>>> but rather *for* the support of FOSS4G & SOTM, and to create a
>>> community.
>>>
>>> Arguable, see how much ESRI (global arm, local orgs are a diff can of
>>> worms) contributes to FOSS4G, especially GDAL, our pillar:
>>> https://opencollective.com/gdal/contributions/793583
>>>
>>> Also here: https://gdal.org/en/latest/sponsors/index.html
>>>
>>> That is just one project, let alone OSM (noted earlier).
>>> Let's match that, then throw stones. Think of the many other geo
>>> companies missing in that list.
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> Sent from a mobile device, apologies for typos.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Oceania <oceania-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> on behalf of Rowan
>>> via Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2024 7:28:37 AM
>>> *To:* Violaine <violaine at posteo.net>
>>> *Cc:* oceania at lists.osgeo.org <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the
>>> room ESRI
>>>
>>> * External email: Please exercise caution *
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I was asked the same question by some of the people that attended with
>>> me. My answer to them was that the FOSS4G community often tells people that
>>> major companies should care and invest in FOSS4G, Open Standards and Data
>>> as ultimately they benefit from it.
>>>
>>> While have ESRI as a sponsor might seem strange, for me it is the
>>> message landing that FOSS4G and big business can coexist and that it
>>> ultimately benefits from an independent development community.
>>>
>>> Hope this perspective helps.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Rowan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 4:55 AM, Violaine via Oceania <
>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>> <On+Thu,+Nov+21,+2024+at+4:55+AM,+Violaine+via+Oceania+%3C%3Ca+href=>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> My quick 2 cents : I felt it weird too, and bring an unconfortable
>>> feeling. (It doesnt question the capacity to organize a great event thought)
>>>
>>> Have a lovely day all
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 20/11/2024 à 03:23, John Bryant via Oceania a écrit :
>>>
>>> Thanks for bringing it up Andrew J, it hasn't sat especially well with
>>> me either. It was a great event, but it seemed incongruous to have a vendor
>>> selling ArcGIS at a booth at a FOSS4G.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 at 21:02, Andrew Harvey via Oceania <
>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>
>>> Good on you for speaking up about your concerns! I'm sure you're not the
>>> only one who had this thought.
>>>
>>> Speaking from myself here, as far as I'm aware anyone can support the
>>> conference financially through sponsorship without any other requirements,
>>> but it would be up to the organising committee and board if they did want
>>> to add additional conditions for accepting sponsors.
>>>
>>> However given ESRI's involvement with OpenStreetMap (
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Esri), in particular their "Esri
>>> World Imagery" which they provide to OpenStreetMap for tracing features,
>>> and their OpenStreetMap powered basemaps which help make it easier for
>>> people to consume OpenStreetMap data. I would say they are very much a
>>> positive part of the OpenStreetMap community and with FOSS4G SotM Oceania
>>> being a State of the Map conference the more financial support we have from
>>> entities who want to help OpenStreetMap the stronger OSGeo Oceania and the
>>> conference will be.
>>>
>>> Andrew Harvey
>>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, at 10:07 PM, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I hope everyone that was able to attend the FOSS4G SOTM Oceania Hobart
>>> conference had a great time. I'm still very much bummed that I wasn't able
>>> to make it down there and my only start at the OO conference remains
>>> Melbourne in 2018. I plan on improving my numbers as best I can into the
>>> future, but from the outside looking in, it looked like all those that
>>> attended had a blast - well done conference committee and OO board.
>>>
>>> I am writing to the list because I have a question that has been bugging
>>> me ever since I talked to a colleague who attended the event. That question
>>> is "What's the deal with ESRI being a sponsor?". I have genuine
>>> curiosity when it comes to the decision process in having them on board. I
>>> understand these things take money to put on and the conference needs to
>>> turn a profit, a healthy conference makes for a healthy OO which allows the
>>> organisation to do many of the great things that they do. However, I think
>>> this sponsorship from ESRI should be reconsidered in the future.
>>>
>>> Just to be clear, I am not opposed to speakers who work for ESRI coming
>>> and talking, from all reports the keynote from Kate Fickas was amazing (as
>>> were all the keynotes from what I hear) and these are the industry people
>>> that we all crave to hear from - top job in landing that line up! But as
>>> for sponsorship I feel that ESRI is putting their brand on a community that
>>> a lot of us turned to when looking for refuge from them.
>>>
>>> I acknowledge that my opinion on this is biased as a QGIS advocate and
>>> trainer. But something about this just feels off! I don't see what's in it
>>> for the FOSS4G community having ESRI involved in our conferences, to me it
>>> looks more of a cheap way for them to buy some good news without doing
>>> anything to improve the relationship with the FOSS4G community.
>>>
>>> However, I know I wasn't there, and I could be wrong about the whole
>>> thing. Maybe the overwhelming opinion is that it's a good thing and this is
>>> a step in the right direction? I would be interested in hearing what people
>>> think and even hearing from someone on the conference organising committee
>>> that has more knowledge about this. Is this something the conference would
>>> do again? Is there a limit to their involvement? What would have happened
>>> if they were a platinum sponsor and got the primary logo placement + verbal
>>> mention at opening and closing of the event?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Andrew
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>>>
>>>
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