[OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI

[Dan Carmody]

Dear all,

Not chiming in one way or the other but some thoughts to ponder...

1. There is no such thing as a "free lunch".

2. If it is free, then either YOU are the product, or YOUR DATA is the
product.

Both are true when dealing with *any* corporate entity. Sponsorship is a
means of gaining influence.

Cheers and good luck to all in the spatial community!

Dan

On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 19:33, Cholena Smart via Oceania <
oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm on the 'this makes me uncomfortable' side of the fence here. I think
> Andrew J has articulated it really nicely, and I strongly support the
> notion that sponsorship should be carefully considered, not just the who,
> but the how as well.
>
> I know ESRI focused on the travel grant this year, and have expressed a
> willingness to do that again. The travel grant program is one of the most
> prominent components of the conference, and it is built on the time, energy
> and good will of a bunch of volunteers, as well as the financial
> contributions from other sponsors and individuals, and the notion that you
> might be able to buy influence and bypass all that goodness just
> doesn't seem right. I'd hope not to see one financial sponsor receiving
> more credit, rights, or recognition than any other contributor in this case.
>
> On a side note, I did hear a mocking comment from one of the ESRI reps at
> the conference about the open sourceness of the conference, which really
> hasn't helped me formulate a positive opinion. Anyway, I'm really glad this
> was raised (thank you Andrew) - more than one conversation was had about it
> at the conference, so it's great to see a more public discussion.
>
> Cheers,
> Cholena
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 09:28, Simon Nitz via Oceania <
> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Happy to shoot this particular elephant!
>>
>>
>>
>> To be honest I have been shat on by certain NZ ESRI partners (note there
>> is no direct ESRI presence in NZ, which may have made a difference) over
>> the years - both as a vendor and as a potential client.  So, I have no
>> particular love for the NZ ESRI partners (although there are some
>> exceptional individuals I talk to occasionally).
>>
>>
>>
>> I think it is fantastic that everyone is engaging in this conversation
>> (even if my own views may not align with everyone) and we should certainly
>> consider our communities views when looking at sponsorship in the future.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Oceania <oceania-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of *Carrol
>> Chan via Oceania
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2024 2:08 PM
>> *To:* eli <elipuccioni at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* OSgeo - Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Even though I did not attend the conference this year I was definitely a
>> bit taken aback when I saw ESRI as a sponsor and completely understand the
>> feelings of those who have been burned not only by regional distributors,
>> but also strong ESRI advocates. However, I believe our community
>> (especially young and recent graduates) is made up of many 'converted' ESRI
>> users, and in some cases we're basically preaching to the choir. I see this
>> as a positive step, where it opens the opportunity to build a bridge to
>> many individuals on the other side who are just as passionate about their
>> work and looking to belong to a community as awesome as ours. At the end of
>> the day, we all utilise what works for us, whether open or commercial. I
>> definitely sound naive, but as Eli has mentioned, I've also learned to
>> value and trust individuals over large (and sometimes scary) organisations,
>> and I think it would be a step back to close our community off to
>> organisations such as ESRI, which could also make individuals associated
>> feel unwelcome.
>>
>>
>>
>> This discussion is incredibly valuable, and I hope it continues as it
>> would be useful for the organising committee for next year's global FOSS4G
>> in Auckland!
>>
>>
>>
>> Vinaka,
>>
>> Carrol
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 11:12, eli via Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks to Andrew and everyone else who has contributed to this
>> discussion. It seems to have stirred quite a reaction in the community, and
>> it’s important to address it.
>>
>> As Alex pointed out, the committee's decisions are somewhat separate from
>> the board. That said, I personally supported this initiative. Like many of
>> you, I’ve been ‘burned’ by ESRI regional distributors, who in some
>> countries actively try (and sometimes succeed) to poach potential clients.
>> This creates significant damage to small companies like mine, all for a few
>> thousand dollars that likely don’t even cover their Christmas party
>> expenses.
>>
>> However, I was thrilled to have Kate Fickas as one of our (all female)
>> keynote speakers. In my opinion, she’s an amazing person who genuinely
>> cares about community building, as demonstrated through her Ladies of
>> Landsat group and her ongoing activism on social media. She’s also a
>> long-time friend of FOSS4G OO, having been a keynote speaker at our online
>> 2021 conference, waking up at an ungodly hour to help us deliver quality
>> content during a challenging time. It’s also worth noting that she was
>> selected and agreed to be a keynote speaker for the Hobar conference before
>> anyone considered having ESRI as a sponsor.
>>
>> From what I understand, Kate played a pivotal role in encouraging ESRI to
>> sponsor the conference, as one of her roles is community building. I
>> recognise that some may view this as an attempt from ESRI to interfere in
>> our community, and I don’t want to be naïve and discard that possibility.
>> Nevertheless, I tend to value and trust individuals over large
>> organizations. My experience has shown that we shouldn’t judge people’s
>> intentions and behaviour based solely on the companies they work for.
>>
>> We have talented, passionate members in our community who work for
>> ‘questionable’ big companies, and we embrace them. If we cut off ESRI,
>> should we also discuss those other companies? Perhaps, and I’d be happy to
>> contribute to that conversation. But if we accept contributions from other
>> companies, why not try to build a bridge with ESRI, which is undeniably
>> doing good things with GDAL and in the OSM world? Additionally, having ESRI
>> at our conference could attract to the OS world people and countries that
>> primarily use ESRI software, like the Cook Islands.
>>
>> For these reasons, I was pleased that the committee decided to explore
>> this bridge-building opportunity at the conference. I thoroughly enjoyed
>> Kate’s keynote address and our discussions, as she had many interesting and
>> practical ideas for empowering specific members of our community, including
>> women and non-native English speakers.
>>
>> That said, what matters most to me is our community. I want it to thrive,
>> grow, and feel comfortable and safe above all else. I’m more than willing
>> to advocate against ESRI sponsorship in the future if the majority feels
>> it’s a threat rather than an opportunity. OO exists because of all of you,
>> and your needs always come first in our decisions. Let’s continue this
>> discussion and see where it leads us.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Elisa
>>
>>
>>
>> Il giorno gio 21 nov 2024 alle ore 10:32 Alex Leith via Oceania <
>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> ha scritto:
>>
>> Hi Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for raising this, and I'm glad we're having the discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> The local organising committee for FOSS4G SotM Oceania operates
>> independently of the Board, even though some on the committee may be Board
>> members. And as a committee, we talked a lot about decisions on keynotes,
>> making sure we were bringing the right influence to the event, the right
>> "vibe". We talked less about sponsors, really, and that was mostly
>> delegated to the sponsorship team (which was mostly Nick Forbes-Smith and
>> me).
>>
>>
>>
>> So, there are two separate items here, as you note. Kate Fickas was
>> invited as a keynote speaker because she's been an incredible advocate for
>> women and I think her keynote was really good. She spoke about specific
>> initiatives, like how she worked with others in the USGS to get Virginia T.
>> Norwood recognition as the person who actually invented Landsat!
>>
>>
>>
>> The Esri sponsorship came up separately, though I think Kate may have
>> encouraged it. And Esri were able to justify their sponsorship internally
>> due to their support for the SotM component of our conference. Kate
>> acknowledged in her keynote that Esri uses open source software in their
>> applications. It's worth noting that Esri supported the GDAL Barnraising
>> efforts in a significant way (https://gdalbarn.com/.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, I know that some have been burned by Esri resellers doing things
>> that are not good, and there's a lot of hard feelings around. I don't
>> discount that at all. But I feel as a community we should keep the gate
>> open. We need support from business to make the conference happen, and
>> we'll need it for the global event next year in a big way. Other
>> organisations that may sponsor may or may have imperfect reputations in
>> some areas, but good people work in all of these organisations. I believe
>> it’s reasonable to welcome sponsorship from any organisation, provided they
>> agree to our code of conduct and other reasonable conditions set by the
>> community.
>>
>>
>>
>> My honest personal take is that we should expect sponsors to not be
>> anti-open source and not be anti-competitive. But I think we should hold
>> ourselves to similar standards. The era of militant anti-proprietary
>> software movements has largely passed, and in many ways, we’ve already won.
>> As I mentioned during the “pitch a future” session at the conference, the
>> open movement feels inevitable. Microsoft’s journey from labeling open
>> source a “virus” to embracing it wholeheartedly is a prime example. Should
>> we have rejected Microsoft's contributions to past events?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 02:53, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania <
>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope everyone that was able to attend the FOSS4G SOTM Oceania Hobart
>> conference had a great time. I'm still very much bummed that I wasn't able
>> to make it down there and my only start at the OO conference remains
>> Melbourne in 2018. I plan on improving my numbers as best I can into the
>> future, but from the outside looking in, it looked like all those that
>> attended had a blast - well done conference committee and OO board.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am writing to the list because I have a question that has been bugging
>> me ever since I talked to a colleague who attended the event. That question
>> is "What's the deal with ESRI being a sponsor?". I have genuine
>> curiosity when it comes to the decision process in having them on board. I
>> understand these things take money to put on and the conference needs to
>> turn a profit, a healthy conference makes for a healthy OO which allows the
>> organisation to do many of the great things that they do. However, I think
>> this sponsorship from ESRI should be reconsidered in the future.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just to be clear, I am not opposed to speakers who work for ESRI coming
>> and talking, from all reports the keynote from Kate Fickas was amazing (as
>> were all the keynotes from what I hear) and these are the industry people
>> that we all crave to hear from - top job in landing that line up! But as
>> for sponsorship I feel that ESRI is putting their brand on a community that
>> a lot of us turned to when looking for refuge from them.
>>
>>
>>
>> I acknowledge that my opinion on this is biased as a QGIS advocate and
>> trainer. But something about this just feels off! I don't see what's in it
>> for the FOSS4G community having ESRI involved in our conferences, to me it
>> looks more of a cheap way for them to buy some good news without doing
>> anything to improve the relationship with the FOSS4G community.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, I know I wasn't there, and I could be wrong about the whole
>> thing. Maybe the overwhelming opinion is that it's a good thing and this is
>> a step in the right direction? I would be interested in hearing what people
>> think and even hearing from someone on the conference organising committee
>> that has more knowledge about this. Is this something the conference would
>> do again? Is there a limit to their involvement? What would have happened
>> if they were a platinum sponsor and got the primary logo placement + verbal
>> mention at opening and closing of the event?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Andrew
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Alex Leith*
>>
>> m: +61 419 189 050
>>
>> https://auspatious.com
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Potrebbe andar peggio...potrebbe piovere!
>>
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