[OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI

Fri Nov 22 12:53:10 PST 2024

It is even more trust for our free and open source software also - in this
case it is our *time* that becomes the technology we all share and enjoy.

It is something we can do a bit better on as a foss4g community, both with
service providers contributing (as in the gdal example) but also as
individuals with testing and feedback.

It takes a lot of effort to make things go. The rest of the IT industry has
moved on to open source as a default. We no longer benefit on the rest of
the industry for open source advocacy.

Example: Easy test for companies and public institutions that promote
foss4g - do you have a clear contribution policy for your employees? If not
you are missing out on *control*, and the community not as robust from a
*sustainability* perspective.

I do appreciate the work that Howard does to support gdal as an example for
our community of what sustainability looks like. We are also trying to be a
bit more transparent with GeoServer in 2024.

Cheers
- -
Jody Garnett

On Nov 21, 2024 at 3:58:18 PM, Dan Carmody via Oceania <
oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Not chiming in one way or the other but some thoughts to ponder...
>
> 1. There is no such thing as a "free lunch".
>
> 2. If it is free, then either YOU are the product, or YOUR DATA is the
> product.
>
> Both are true when dealing with *any* corporate entity. Sponsorship is a
> means of gaining influence.
>
> Cheers and good luck to all in the spatial community!
>
> Dan
>
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 19:33, Cholena Smart via Oceania <
> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm on the 'this makes me uncomfortable' side of the fence here. I think
>> Andrew J has articulated it really nicely, and I strongly support the
>> notion that sponsorship should be carefully considered, not just the who,
>> but the how as well.
>>
>> I know ESRI focused on the travel grant this year, and have expressed a
>> willingness to do that again. The travel grant program is one of the most
>> prominent components of the conference, and it is built on the time, energy
>> and good will of a bunch of volunteers, as well as the financial
>> contributions from other sponsors and individuals, and the notion that you
>> might be able to buy influence and bypass all that goodness just
>> doesn't seem right. I'd hope not to see one financial sponsor receiving
>> more credit, rights, or recognition than any other contributor in this case.
>>
>> On a side note, I did hear a mocking comment from one of the ESRI reps at
>> the conference about the open sourceness of the conference, which really
>> hasn't helped me formulate a positive opinion. Anyway, I'm really glad this
>> was raised (thank you Andrew) - more than one conversation was had about it
>> at the conference, so it's great to see a more public discussion.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Cholena
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 09:28, Simon Nitz via Oceania <
>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Happy to shoot this particular elephant!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To be honest I have been shat on by certain NZ ESRI partners (note there
>>> is no direct ESRI presence in NZ, which may have made a difference) over
>>> the years - both as a vendor and as a potential client.  So, I have no
>>> particular love for the NZ ESRI partners (although there are some
>>> exceptional individuals I talk to occasionally).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think it is fantastic that everyone is engaging in this conversation
>>> (even if my own views may not align with everyone) and we should certainly
>>> consider our communities views when looking at sponsorship in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Oceania <oceania-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of *Carrol
>>> Chan via Oceania
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2024 2:08 PM
>>> *To:* eli <elipuccioni at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* OSgeo - Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Even though I did not attend the conference this year I was definitely a
>>> bit taken aback when I saw ESRI as a sponsor and completely understand the
>>> feelings of those who have been burned not only by regional distributors,
>>> but also strong ESRI advocates. However, I believe our community
>>> (especially young and recent graduates) is made up of many 'converted' ESRI
>>> users, and in some cases we're basically preaching to the choir. I see this
>>> as a positive step, where it opens the opportunity to build a bridge to
>>> many individuals on the other side who are just as passionate about their
>>> work and looking to belong to a community as awesome as ours. At the end of
>>> the day, we all utilise what works for us, whether open or commercial. I
>>> definitely sound naive, but as Eli has mentioned, I've also learned to
>>> value and trust individuals over large (and sometimes scary) organisations,
>>> and I think it would be a step back to close our community off to
>>> organisations such as ESRI, which could also make individuals associated
>>> feel unwelcome.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This discussion is incredibly valuable, and I hope it continues as it
>>> would be useful for the organising committee for next year's global FOSS4G
>>> in Auckland!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vinaka,
>>>
>>> Carrol
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 11:12, eli via Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks to Andrew and everyone else who has contributed to this
>>> discussion. It seems to have stirred quite a reaction in the community, and
>>> it’s important to address it.
>>>
>>> As Alex pointed out, the committee's decisions are somewhat separate
>>> from the board. That said, I personally supported this initiative. Like
>>> many of you, I’ve been ‘burned’ by ESRI regional distributors, who in some
>>> countries actively try (and sometimes succeed) to poach potential clients.
>>> This creates significant damage to small companies like mine, all for a few
>>> thousand dollars that likely don’t even cover their Christmas party
>>> expenses.
>>>
>>> However, I was thrilled to have Kate Fickas as one of our (all female)
>>> keynote speakers. In my opinion, she’s an amazing person who genuinely
>>> cares about community building, as demonstrated through her Ladies of
>>> Landsat group and her ongoing activism on social media. She’s also a
>>> long-time friend of FOSS4G OO, having been a keynote speaker at our online
>>> 2021 conference, waking up at an ungodly hour to help us deliver quality
>>> content during a challenging time. It’s also worth noting that she was
>>> selected and agreed to be a keynote speaker for the Hobar conference before
>>> anyone considered having ESRI as a sponsor.
>>>
>>> From what I understand, Kate played a pivotal role in encouraging ESRI
>>> to sponsor the conference, as one of her roles is community building. I
>>> recognise that some may view this as an attempt from ESRI to interfere in
>>> our community, and I don’t want to be naïve and discard that possibility.
>>> Nevertheless, I tend to value and trust individuals over large
>>> organizations. My experience has shown that we shouldn’t judge people’s
>>> intentions and behaviour based solely on the companies they work for.
>>>
>>> We have talented, passionate members in our community who work for
>>> ‘questionable’ big companies, and we embrace them. If we cut off ESRI,
>>> should we also discuss those other companies? Perhaps, and I’d be happy to
>>> contribute to that conversation. But if we accept contributions from other
>>> companies, why not try to build a bridge with ESRI, which is undeniably
>>> doing good things with GDAL and in the OSM world? Additionally, having ESRI
>>> at our conference could attract to the OS world people and countries that
>>> primarily use ESRI software, like the Cook Islands.
>>>
>>> For these reasons, I was pleased that the committee decided to explore
>>> this bridge-building opportunity at the conference. I thoroughly enjoyed
>>> Kate’s keynote address and our discussions, as she had many interesting and
>>> practical ideas for empowering specific members of our community, including
>>> women and non-native English speakers.
>>>
>>> That said, what matters most to me is our community. I want it to
>>> thrive, grow, and feel comfortable and safe above all else. I’m more than
>>> willing to advocate against ESRI sponsorship in the future if the majority
>>> feels it’s a threat rather than an opportunity. OO exists because of all of
>>> you, and your needs always come first in our decisions. Let’s continue this
>>> discussion and see where it leads us.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Elisa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Il giorno gio 21 nov 2024 alle ore 10:32 Alex Leith via Oceania <
>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> ha scritto:
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for raising this, and I'm glad we're having the discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The local organising committee for FOSS4G SotM Oceania operates
>>> independently of the Board, even though some on the committee may be Board
>>> members. And as a committee, we talked a lot about decisions on keynotes,
>>> making sure we were bringing the right influence to the event, the right
>>> "vibe". We talked less about sponsors, really, and that was mostly
>>> delegated to the sponsorship team (which was mostly Nick Forbes-Smith and
>>> me).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, there are two separate items here, as you note. Kate Fickas was
>>> invited as a keynote speaker because she's been an incredible advocate for
>>> women and I think her keynote was really good. She spoke about specific
>>> initiatives, like how she worked with others in the USGS to get Virginia T.
>>> Norwood recognition as the person who actually invented Landsat!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Esri sponsorship came up separately, though I think Kate may have
>>> encouraged it. And Esri were able to justify their sponsorship internally
>>> due to their support for the SotM component of our conference. Kate
>>> acknowledged in her keynote that Esri uses open source software in their
>>> applications. It's worth noting that Esri supported the GDAL Barnraising
>>> efforts in a significant way (https://gdalbarn.com/.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, I know that some have been burned by Esri resellers doing things
>>> that are not good, and there's a lot of hard feelings around. I don't
>>> discount that at all. But I feel as a community we should keep the gate
>>> open. We need support from business to make the conference happen, and
>>> we'll need it for the global event next year in a big way. Other
>>> organisations that may sponsor may or may have imperfect reputations in
>>> some areas, but good people work in all of these organisations. I believe
>>> it’s reasonable to welcome sponsorship from any organisation, provided they
>>> agree to our code of conduct and other reasonable conditions set by the
>>> community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My honest personal take is that we should expect sponsors to not be
>>> anti-open source and not be anti-competitive. But I think we should hold
>>> ourselves to similar standards. The era of militant anti-proprietary
>>> software movements has largely passed, and in many ways, we’ve already won.
>>> As I mentioned during the “pitch a future” session at the conference, the
>>> open movement feels inevitable. Microsoft’s journey from labeling open
>>> source a “virus” to embracing it wholeheartedly is a prime example. Should
>>> we have rejected Microsoft's contributions to past events?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 02:53, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania <
>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope everyone that was able to attend the FOSS4G SOTM Oceania Hobart
>>> conference had a great time. I'm still very much bummed that I wasn't able
>>> to make it down there and my only start at the OO conference remains
>>> Melbourne in 2018. I plan on improving my numbers as best I can into the
>>> future, but from the outside looking in, it looked like all those that
>>> attended had a blast - well done conference committee and OO board.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am writing to the list because I have a question that has been bugging
>>> me ever since I talked to a colleague who attended the event. That question
>>> is "What's the deal with ESRI being a sponsor?". I have genuine
>>> curiosity when it comes to the decision process in having them on board. I
>>> understand these things take money to put on and the conference needs to
>>> turn a profit, a healthy conference makes for a healthy OO which allows the
>>> organisation to do many of the great things that they do. However, I think
>>> this sponsorship from ESRI should be reconsidered in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just to be clear, I am not opposed to speakers who work for ESRI coming
>>> and talking, from all reports the keynote from Kate Fickas was amazing (as
>>> were all the keynotes from what I hear) and these are the industry people
>>> that we all crave to hear from - top job in landing that line up! But as
>>> for sponsorship I feel that ESRI is putting their brand on a community that
>>> a lot of us turned to when looking for refuge from them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I acknowledge that my opinion on this is biased as a QGIS advocate and
>>> trainer. But something about this just feels off! I don't see what's in it
>>> for the FOSS4G community having ESRI involved in our conferences, to me it
>>> looks more of a cheap way for them to buy some good news without doing
>>> anything to improve the relationship with the FOSS4G community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, I know I wasn't there, and I could be wrong about the whole
>>> thing. Maybe the overwhelming opinion is that it's a good thing and this is
>>> a step in the right direction? I would be interested in hearing what people
>>> think and even hearing from someone on the conference organising committee
>>> that has more knowledge about this. Is this something the conference would
>>> do again? Is there a limit to their involvement? What would have happened
>>> if they were a platinum sponsor and got the primary logo placement + verbal
>>> mention at opening and closing of the event?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Oceania mailing list
>>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Alex Leith*
>>>
>>> m: +61 419 189 050
>>>
>>> https://auspatious.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Oceania mailing list
>>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Potrebbe andar peggio...potrebbe piovere!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Oceania mailing list
>>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Oceania mailing list
>>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Oceania mailing list
>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Oceania mailing list
> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/oceania/attachments/20241122/ce0112e1/attachment-0001.htm>