[OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI

Mon Jan 27 02:01:28 PST 2025

Thanks John for these comments and I think you have summed up where I think
we should be.

On Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 3:06 PM John Bryant via Oceania <
oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> This has been on my mind as well. I really appreciate all the thoughtful
> comments in this discussion; I'd left Hobart wondering if anyone had
> feelings about the ESRI sponsorship, as I did.
>
> It wasn't a great feeling in general. I didn't love that ESRI was
> promoting ArcGIS at a FOSS4G, or that they were given a sponsor stage slot.
> In particular, I was disappointed to see ESRI invited to the travel grant
> breakfast. I'm generally not fond of seeing sponsors gain privileged access
> to spaces that aren't available to others, and it's especially upsetting
> when it's a player with a history of dubious treatment of our community.
>
> Like many others in our community, I've witnessed behaviour from ESRI (and
> its agents) that I consider antithetical to our values. It often seems many
> passionate open source geospatial advocates have an origin story that
> begins with a negative encounter with ESRI (myself included).
>
> Obviously, given the comments in this thread, there are still raw and
> unresolved feelings about ESRI's relationship with our community. WIth that
> in mind, I'm not a fan of seeing ESRI as a sponsor of our events.
>
> I'm hopeful that ESRI may someday show itself to be a good open source
> citizen, and perhaps we can have a positive influence in that direction.
> Like Byron suggests, we can't do that if we don't engage. I feel our best
> strategy for engagement is to invite ESRI to attend our conferences, to
> tell stories that connect with our community (subject to the same selection
> processes as everyone else), and gain its place by building relationships
> and demonstrating good behaviour over time. For now, I don't think we're
> there.
>
> It's been suggested we shouldn't be "divisive". Until there's consensus in
> our community that ESRI is a friendly player, it's difficult to imagine a
> more divisive action than prominently placing its brand on our main event.
>
> My 2c.
>
> John
>
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 at 19:56, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania <
> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Thanks for the presentations Alex, I have been binge watching!
>>
>> I echo Ems comments, it's great that we can have this discussion openly
>> like this, I really appreciate everyone's contribution and the OO board
>> members encouraging this to happen in the open.
>>
>> I do however feel like we need to keep the thread on topic, as the
>> original question in the thread was "What's the deal with ESRI being a
>> sponsor?"
>>
>> I know Alex's message was to add context to the discussion by adding
>> Kate's keynote and I can see it's helped people clear up thoughts which is
>> great and worthwhile to the conversation. However I'd like us to not steer
>> the conversation unintentionally to a place where it's focusing on the
>> presenters as that was never my intention. As I mentioned previously I
>> heard it was great, and now after watching I can confirm that it was on
>> point as Alex said.
>>
>> I'm hoping that the meeting minutes from the OO board meeting will
>> clarify a few things regarding the question of "What's the deal with
>> ESRI being a sponsor?". I wish now, with the benefit of hindsight, that I
>> would have asked a clearer and more direct set of questions such as:
>> 1) Why was ESRI considered a suitable sponsor?
>> 2) If the OO board monitors progress of the LOC and provides guidance,
>> why did they not see that this is a potentially risky sponsorship? Or did
>> they think it was fine? Did anyone involved in the LOC or OO board raise
>> concerns?
>> 3) Based on the number of  people that have commented with their less
>> than desirable ESRI related experiences, does the board think this
>> sponsorship choice missed the mark?
>> 4) Is the LOC and OO board considering ESRI sponsorship for the global
>> event in 2025?
>>
>> I'm not saying those questions have to be answered, but that's what has
>> been floating around my head the past few weeks interrupted briefly by xmas
>> ham and prawns.
>>
>> Thanks again for the input.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 3:36 PM Emma Hain via Oceania <
>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All
>>> The great thing about a strong community is that we discuss things,
>>> learn, change, or hold steadfast to our values and everyone is respected
>>> for their position but we can see pass these views and still have a great
>>> community.
>>>
>>> In regards to Kate's presentation, I did have issues with it but
>>> rewatching it has resolved some of the issues - so thank you Alex:
>>> 1) The derision of FOSS4G through the comical comment at 09:15 - her
>>> response was actually quite good saying you can use both.
>>> 2) Marketing of ESRI's firewire - apologies here - I believed that this
>>> was a closed product but it is open.I think this was clouded by what the
>>> people at the ESRI desk were marketing.
>>>
>>> Byron, what you have written shows such a peek to an understanding on
>>> the internal machinations that we should take heed.  It must be hard for
>>> the people on the ground, when the wishes of those who sit in management
>>> don't support their movement and support of FOSS4G. Perhaps Kate is
>>> fighting an uphill battle and we give a bit of leeway, as long as the
>>> developed guidelines based on FOSS4G principles are followed.
>>>
>>> The complexity I think shouldn't be put on a few, I personally am not
>>> loving all the time I am taking on this when I could be undertaking work
>>> for Disaster mapping. However, I see this is important for the community so
>>> it is a priority for me. I urge you to speak up - either way - to help
>>> steer this conference in the direction that is right for us this year.
>>>
>>> To encourage anyone to be an ethical player in this community, and they
>>> succeeding in this, should be the outcome of whatever we do as long as we
>>> look to the safety and preservation of our community's culture.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Em
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:36 PM Byron via Oceania <
>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Alex for this well presented response.
>>>>
>>>> I too have little quibble with Kate’s presentation, but do feel a bit
>>>> uncomfortable with ESRI’s presence at FOSS4G. Not so much that I do not
>>>> think they shouldn't be there, but enough that I would like to see them
>>>> kept on a tight leash.
>>>>
>>>> My own experience with ESRI that leads me to doubt their intentions
>>>> comes from my experiences with ESRI Redlands HQ. I have found their support
>>>> a bit disingenuous and their business approaches often undermine FOSS
>>>> efforts.
>>>>
>>>> Yet I still deal with them on occasion - mostly in the realm of
>>>> international standards bodies. Which is kind of interesting in that they
>>>> have no one on staff who know open standards enough to contribute directly.
>>>> I find this problematic in the FOSS space because FOSS relies heavily on
>>>> open standards.
>>>>
>>>> Yes ESRI has some open source projects. The one with which I am most
>>>> familiar is GeoPortal. This is almost a clone of GeoNetwork. They do not
>>>> engage with GeoNetwork to speak of nor do GN people seem welcome on the GP
>>>> team. The project seems to be positioned to undermine a well established
>>>> FOSS4G project. Luckily it is not succeeding. Mostly it succeeds at being a
>>>> figleaf for saying they support FOSS4G.
>>>>
>>>> While they do support GDAL, they do so for selfish reasons - it is a
>>>> cheap way to get some good functionality that they can charge for. Nothing
>>>> wrong with that. I was in talks with ESRI VP Satish Sankaran about
>>>> developing a similar OS package for metadata. He thought Jack D would go
>>>> for it, as they no longer have this type of expertise in house, but the
>>>> idea went nowhere. Satish indicated that Jack was only lukewarm to FOSS and
>>>> GDAL was a bit of an exception that Jack may or may not go for again in the
>>>> future with other FOSS efforts.
>>>>
>>>> In practice, I have found ESRI is quite hostile to FOSS4G software and
>>>> lukewarm to the standards that underlie it. They are very comfortable with
>>>> vendor lock in. They claim to support open standards and interoperability,
>>>> but they do so just enough to check that box. In practice, there are so
>>>> many bugs in their interoperability that users give up and just buy ESRI.
>>>> That is by design.
>>>>
>>>> ESRI also like to undermine our customer base by badmouthing FOSS4G and
>>>> offering free licenses to our clients. I am facing this now with Iwi
>>>> customers of mine. Not bad mouthing me personally but dismissing the value
>>>> and capability of FOSS4G. They often hook these orgs in with free licenses
>>>> out of their benevolence (yeah, right) then send a huge maintenance
>>>> contract after they are totally trapped in the ESRI environment.
>>>>
>>>> So yes, I too am cautious about ESRI sponsorship. Because they are hard
>>>> nosed corporates and will eat our lunch if they possibly can. Nothing
>>>> personal. Just business.
>>>>
>>>> There are times they do contribute meaningfully. I would like to hear
>>>> about those. ESRI is also a company that we cannot ignore in this line of
>>>> work. Engagement is important. It is also important to keep a close eye on
>>>> them because they WILL eat our lunch if they can. I would like to convince
>>>> them that is not in their best interest. Can’t do that if we do not engage.
>>>>
>>>> Ngā Mihi,
>>>> Byron
>>>>
>>>> On 21 Jan 2025, at 2:06 PM, Alex Leith via Oceania <
>>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hey Folks
>>>>
>>>> Hope we've all had a great break and are ready to tackle a new year,
>>>> one that already has some weird stuff going on in other countries, but
>>>> hopefully we're all safe and well and I wish everyone the best.
>>>>
>>>> So, coming back around to this topic of the elephant.
>>>>
>>>> First, I acknowledge that you're raising the issue of sponsorship here,
>>>> Andrew, but I wanted to share Kate's keynote, because I just rewatched it,
>>>> with an open mind and I cannot find anything in it that is offensive and I
>>>> don't think there's even any marketing in there. It's about the work that
>>>> we do, and calls out the way we should be talking to each other without
>>>> divisiveness, which is a message I wholeheartedly endorse.
>>>>
>>>> So, here's the recording of Kate's talk, for those of you who weren't
>>>> there:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH-8tseMQRQ&list=PLlZzWSPAR5GY4xk_3QvE-nR1vL2AGQYxI
>>>>
>>>> There's a question explicitly stated and implicit too, which is "why
>>>> was Esri there, and do they belong there" and I think it's actually hard to
>>>> argue that they don't. Esri Inc (the US organisation) sponsored at least
>>>> three past global FOSS4G events, and they have active open source projects
>>>> on GitHub https://github.com/esri/. As Martin noted, they've supported
>>>> GDAL in a really big way with cash too. Whether we like it or not, I think
>>>> they are part of our community, and I'd like to think that as an open
>>>> community celebrating open geospatial things, that we should be open to
>>>> this truth.
>>>>
>>>> Now, one more thing from me is that I do acknowledge the bad blood
>>>> caused by certain regional distributors and I've heard some really terrible
>>>> stories, but I consider the global organisation separate from this (though
>>>> perhaps not without some responsibility...). That bad behaviour should be
>>>> called out when anyone does it... and I do call things out, and will
>>>> continue to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow, this email is really to provide a bit more context by sharing
>>>> Kate's talk, and I hope it helps to show the way that she really did try to
>>>> talk about the bigger picture, and talk about the things we do, and I think
>>>> it really did hit the mark in terms of what I'd like keynote talks to aim
>>>> for.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 02:53, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania <
>>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope everyone that was able to attend the FOSS4G SOTM Oceania Hobart
>>>>> conference had a great time. I'm still very much bummed that I wasn't able
>>>>> to make it down there and my only start at the OO conference remains
>>>>> Melbourne in 2018. I plan on improving my numbers as best I can into the
>>>>> future, but from the outside looking in, it looked like all those that
>>>>> attended had a blast - well done conference committee and OO board.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am writing to the list because I have a question that has been
>>>>> bugging me ever since I talked to a colleague who attended the event. That
>>>>> question is "What's the deal with ESRI being a sponsor?". I have genuine
>>>>> curiosity when it comes to the decision process in having them on board. I
>>>>> understand these things take money to put on and the conference needs to
>>>>> turn a profit, a healthy conference makes for a healthy OO which allows the
>>>>> organisation to do many of the great things that they do. However, I think
>>>>> this sponsorship from ESRI should be reconsidered in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to be clear, I am not opposed to speakers who work for ESRI
>>>>> coming and talking, from all reports the keynote from Kate Fickas was
>>>>> amazing (as were all the keynotes from what I hear) and these are the
>>>>> industry people that we all crave to hear from - top job in landing that
>>>>> line up! But as for sponsorship I feel that ESRI is putting their brand on
>>>>> a community that a lot of us turned to when looking for refuge from them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I acknowledge that my opinion on this is biased as a QGIS advocate and
>>>>> trainer. But something about this just feels off! I don't see what's in it
>>>>> for the FOSS4G community having ESRI involved in our conferences, to me it
>>>>> looks more of a cheap way for them to buy some good news without doing
>>>>> anything to improve the relationship with the FOSS4G community.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I know I wasn't there, and I could be wrong about the whole
>>>>> thing. Maybe the overwhelming opinion is that it's a good thing and this is
>>>>> a step in the right direction? I would be interested in hearing what people
>>>>> think and even hearing from someone on the conference organising committee
>>>>> that has more knowledge about this. Is this something the conference would
>>>>> do again? Is there a limit to their involvement? What would have happened
>>>>> if they were a platinum sponsor and got the primary logo placement + verbal
>>>>> mention at opening and closing of the event?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Andrew
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Oceania mailing list
>>>>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Alex Leith*
>>>> m: +61 419 189 050
>>>> https://auspatious.com
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>>>>
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