[postgis-users] Re: when rasters in Postgis?
strk at refractions.net
strk at refractions.net
Wed Sep 28 08:51:42 PDT 2005
As a user I'm not against storing rasters in the database.
As a developer I don't immediately see the "right" way to do it.
My point of view is not worth the point of view of users that
actually attempted at doing so, with current available interfaces,
and analyzed the limits (I never tried to use the CHIP type, as
others did).
Of course using file-based rasters would be faster then going
trough the db, but I do see uses in which speed is not as
important as integrity, consistent editing/access and
easy-of-migration.
That said, Refractions' development plans do not currently include
raster support, but PostGIS source code is available to anyone
for using, adapting and sharing. Get involved.
Happy hacking.
--strk;
On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 03:04:54PM +0200, Giorgio Plazzotta wrote:
> I have to support what r.b. said about this subject and lightly disagree
> with Paul. What paul said is all true but in my opinion is partial and
> reach a wrong conclusion. True that ESRI play its commercial strategie
> looking more at it's own economic interests than the users'. True that in
> many cases there aren't advantages in performances or in data organization
> when we insert raster data inside the geodatabase. But uneasy to remind
> that there are hundreds of different application fields of the geospatial
> techologies and consequently thousands of different specifications,
> solutions, techincal needs. A solution that is not appropriate to achieve a
> certain task vould be the best solution in a completely different
> environment. This applies also to the technical choice regarding the way to
> manage raster files. For us user of course it would be better to have more
> possible ways to run. Mapserver and Postgis already give us several ways to
> manage raster file but the geodatabase management is missing. It doesn't
> mean that it's the best way of the has to be the only one. Probably this
> functionality is very heavy to build and the developers didnt put on top of
> the priority list. It should be reasonable. It should be interesting to
> know the developer's point of view.
> Giorgio
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <postgis-users-request at postgis.refractions.net>
> To: <postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 1:40 PM
> Subject: postgis-users Digest, Vol 35, Issue 51
>
>
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> >
> >
> >Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Re: when rasters in Postgis? (rb)
> > 2. ANN: First zigGIS Release (Abe Gillespie)
> > 3. PostGIS PHP Class - Documentation Release (Paul Scott)
> > 4. AW: [postgis-users] ANN: First zigGIS Release (Uwe Seher)
> > 5. RE: data loading problem (Mark Cave-Ayland)
> > 6. Re: QGIS 0.7 and PostGIS 1.0.4 works fines on Debian
> > (Markus Schaber)
> > 7. Re: create a dataset with a name I already used before
> > (Markus Schaber)
> > 8. RE: create a dataset with a name I already used before
> > (Gregory S. Williamson)
> > 9. Re: QGIS 0.7 and PostGIS 1.0.4 works fines on Debian
> > (G?rald Fenoy)
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 1
> >Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:27:28 -0400
> >From: rb <rburghol at chesapeakebay.net>
> >Subject: Re: [postgis-users] Re: when rasters in Postgis?
> >To: PostGIS Users Discussion <postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net>
> >Message-ID: <1127852848.17019.22.camel at menhaden>
> >Content-Type: text/plain
> >
> >While I would not support acutally sticking the raster data into a db
> >table, there are many uses for rasters beyond masturbation. For that
> >matter, some of us actually USE raster data for analysis, not just
> >pretty pictures.
> >
> >If you are dealing with environmental data, there are many compelling
> >reasons to prefer rasters, i.e. when analyzing a kajillion data points.
> >I have seen numerous posts on this list regarding the performance hit
> >that one encounters when analyzing point data that at times has struck
> >me as begging for a raster solution. For these limited situations, I
> >think that attaching file names in a field as another user has suggested
> >is reasonable, but then there is also the issue of allowing for raster
> >querying from SQL syntax.
> >
> >Consider a situation where one has raster land use data and vector
> >watershed data. The landuse data cannot be stored efficiently in either
> >point or polygon format, because at the current levels of resolution (1
> >meter cell width for lidar elevation data) it would cripple your system.
> >So, you want to know the breakdowns in land use by your sub-watersheds
> >-- this requires a zonal summary of raster data within a vector. Pull it
> >into ArcFOO and do the analysis, then bring it back to your data base
> >you may say? Perhaps, but what if this data is changing temporally, and
> >this is not the solution that you wish? A good example of temporally
> >changing raster data beyond landuse (slow change) is deposition of
> >atmospheric contaminants (changing over long and short time scales) and
> >rainfall (minute by minute). Plus, there is a reason we are trying to
> >avoid ArcFOO in the first place...
> >
> >I think it is cool to look at a variety of the challenges and dead
> >ends/wrong turns that one may encounter in response to raster queries.
> >I also understand that not everyone has the inclination or need to work
> >on a raster implementation of some sort, but there most definitely ARE
> >good uses of raster data that is integrated with, if not actually stored
> >in, an RDBMS.
> >
> >my $0.02,
> >r.b.
> >
> >
> >On Mon, 2005-09-26 at 21:42, Paul Ramsey wrote:
> >>Thank you Patrick :) !!! It takes a raster geek to note that stuffing
> >>data traditionally stored in multi-gigabyte files into a RDBMS does
> >>not necessarily buy you *anything* of use. And doing it well
> >>involves a lot of trade offs. In order for the database to perform
> >>at random access of the data, it must be cut up into chunks of less
> >>than the page size. So everything going in must be pre-processed. So
> >>there's a format conversion step on the way in. And hopefully you
> >>also push everything into the same SRS.
> >>
> >>And when you're done, what do you do with it? Let me guess, now you
> >>want mapserver support or some kind of commandline support to pull
> >>the stuff out into mosaics... Which is nothing more than what you can
> >>do with mapserver and a bunch of TIFFs.
> >>
> >>I have a huge problem with "raster in the database" because I do not
> >>believe it has any practical purpose. ESRI promotes it primarily as
> >>a way to sell ArcSDE licenses, but this has led to a widespread
> >>belief in the geospatial community that putting raster imagery into a
> >>database is actually a useful exercise, not the masturbatory waste of
> >>time it really is.
> >>
> >>Buy a lot of disks. Convert your imagery to TIFF and create internal
> >>pyramids (gdal will do all this for you). Create a tileindex, either
> >>in shape or in postgis if you have some other programmatic use for
> >>the index. Put mapserver on top of it and serve it as a WMS. Want a
> >>mosaic? Run a simply curl call on it for the area and size you
> >>want. Want to see it in your GIS desktop (ArcMap, uDig, JUMP,
> >>whathaveyou)? Point the thing at the WMS and you have instant tiled
> >>complete imagery coverage within your application.
> >>
> >>But please, god, don't stuff images into your database.
> >>
> >>Paul
> >>
> >>On 25-Sep-05, at 1:30 PM, Patrick wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Considering the traditional mismatch in granularity between raster
> >>> data and
> >>> database storage, the challenge is in devising an efficient storage
> >>> design
> >>> that does justice to both. That design would no doubt be based on
> >>> some form
> >>> of tiling of the data, but then new issues surface, such as how to
> >>> deal with
> >>> the diverse input formats, how to deal with reprojection, and how
> >>> to present
> >>> data in response to queries (where most user programs expect entire
> >>> rasters,
> >>> not tiles of data).
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>postgis-users mailing list
> >>postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >>http://postgis.refractions.net/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >--
> >Non-point Source Data Analyst
> >University of Maryland, College Park
> >Chesapeake Bay Program Office
> >410 Severn Avenue, Suite 305B
> >Annapolis, MD, 21403
> >Phone: (410) 267-5779
> >
> >rburghol at chesapeakebay.net
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 2
> >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:15:27 -0400
> >From: Abe Gillespie <abe.gillespie at gmail.com>
> >Subject: [postgis-users] ANN: First zigGIS Release
> >To: ziggis-devel at avoir.uwc.ac.za,
> >postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >Message-ID: <a6d397e3050927221531badb6e at mail.gmail.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> >Sorry for the cross-post, but this is a brand new project and I want
> >to get the word out. zigGIS is an ArcGIS-to-PostGIS connector. We
> >have big plans for it. Currently it has read access abilities to
> >PostGIS and hopefully one day it will have write access to PostGIS
> >(warning - it's probably not the easiest to get compiled right now).
> >Check out the website at:
> >
> >http://avoir.uwc.ac.za/projects/ziggis/
> >
> >Be sure to also visit the help forum. I've put a very quick getting
> >started thread together. When I have the time I'll put something more
> >extensive up.
> >
> >Please get involved anyone that wants to work together to make a great
> >product for the community.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >-Abe
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 3
> >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:45:31 +0200
> >From: Paul Scott <pscott at uwc.ac.za>
> >Subject: [postgis-users] PostGIS PHP Class - Documentation Release
> >To: postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >Message-ID: <1127886331.8300.14.camel at localhost>
> >Content-Type: text/plain
> >
> >For all those waiting for the PHPDocumentor docs for this class, they
> >are now available at http://avoir.uwc.ac.za/projects/postgis
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >--Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 4
> >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:57:22 +0200
> >From: "Uwe Seher" <useher at web.de>
> >Subject: AW: [postgis-users] ANN: First zigGIS Release
> >To: "Abe Gillespie" <abe.gillespie at gmail.com>, "PostGIS Users
> >Discussion" <postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net>
> >Message-ID: <AAEHKKKAHMPIHCBJJICBCEFKCFAA.useher at web.de>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >Hello!
> >Congratulatuion to your project. I had begun the same project this year,
> >but
> >because of some private matters (o yeah! RL ;)) and some payed projects it
> >has become a background thing. So i wasnt able to establish the projekt in
> >sourceforge.
> >I just coded something like a prototype which can connect and read tables
> >and and views and can process WKT-strings. I've done in VB6. So if you
> >want,
> >i join your project. We must not do the same work twice.
> >
> >Greetings
> >
> >Uwe Seher
> >----------------------------------
> >Uwe Seher, Dipl.-Geol.
> >Geologie + Geoinformation
> >Beethovenstr. 12
> >67360 Lingenfeld
> >
> >Contact: useher at web.de
> >
> >
> >-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >Von: postgis-users-bounces at postgis.refractions.net
> >[mailto:postgis-users-bounces at postgis.refractions.net]Im Auftrag von Abe
> >Gillespie
> >Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. September 2005 07:15
> >An: ziggis-devel at avoir.uwc.ac.za; postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >Betreff: [postgis-users] ANN: First zigGIS Release
> >
> >
> >Sorry for the cross-post, but this is a brand new project and I want
> >to get the word out. zigGIS is an ArcGIS-to-PostGIS connector. We
> >have big plans for it. Currently it has read access abilities to
> >PostGIS and hopefully one day it will have write access to PostGIS
> >(warning - it's probably not the easiest to get compiled right now).
> >Check out the website at:
> >
> >http://avoir.uwc.ac.za/projects/ziggis/
> >
> >Be sure to also visit the help forum. I've put a very quick getting
> >started thread together. When I have the time I'll put something more
> >extensive up.
> >
> >Please get involved anyone that wants to work together to make a great
> >product for the community.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >-Abe
> >_______________________________________________
> >postgis-users mailing list
> >postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >http://postgis.refractions.net/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >
> >____________
> >Virus checked by G DATA AntiVirusKit
> >Version: AVK 16.532 from 17.09.2005
> >Virus news: www.antiviruslab.com
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 5
> >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:37:34 +0100
> >From: "Mark Cave-Ayland" <m.cave-ayland at webbased.co.uk>
> >Subject: RE: [postgis-users] data loading problem
> >To: "'PostGIS Users Discussion'"
> ><postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net>
> >Message-ID:
> ><9EB50F1A91413F4FA63019487FCD251D23927C at WEBBASEDDC.webbasedltd.local>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: postgis-users-bounces at postgis.refractions.net
> >>[mailto:postgis-users-bounces at postgis.refractions.net] On
> >>Behalf Of Chris Everhart
> >>Sent: 27 September 2005 19:30
> >>To: postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >>Subject: [postgis-users] data loading problem
> >>
> >>
> >>Hello all,
> >>
> >>I am having a problem loading data to a database. I am using a hosting
> >>service that includes PostGIS and I have recently been moved to a
> >different
> >>server. When I run the command "psql -p 5434 -d BernaNM -f
> >den_jeffZip.sql"
> >>(den_jeffZip.sql was created with shp2pgsql), this is the output:
> >>
> >>-jailshell-2.05b$ psql -p 5434 -d BernaNM -f den_jeffZip.sql BEGIN
> >>psql:den_jeffZip.sql:2: NOTICE: CREATE TABLE will create
> >>implicit sequence
> >>"den_jeffzip_gid_seq" for serial column "den_jeffzip.gid" CREATE TABLE
> >> addgeometrycolumn
> >>--------------------------------------------------------------
> >>public.den_jeffzip.the_geom SRID:-1 TYPE:MULTIPOLYGON DIMS:2
> >>geometry_column fixed:0 (1 row)
> >>
> >>When I get into the database and do a "\d" command, the new table does
> >>not
> >
> >>show. Also, I did a "select * from geometry_columns;" command and the
> >table
> >>has not been updated. I've tried several SQL insert files that have
> >worked
> >>in the past and none have yielded any results.
> >>
> >>Does the admin have to change any permissions on my account? Any other
> >>suggestions?
> >>
> >>Thanks people.
> >>
> >>Christian
> >
> >
> >Hi Christian,
> >
> >Looking at the output from your script, there appears to be a BEGIN tag
> >but
> >no COMMIT tag - hence the server will not commit any changes. Can you
> >check
> >to see that there is a COMMIT statement somewhere in your den_jeffZip.sql
> >file?
> >
> >Also it could be that in moving server, you have been upgraded to a newer
> >version of PostGIS/PostgreSQL. If so, you may find that using the
> >shp2pgsql
> >on your new server to regenerate your .sql files from your shapefiles may
> >give better results.
> >
> >
> >Kind regards,
> >
> >Mark.
> >
> >------------------------
> >WebBased Ltd
> >South West Technology Centre
> >Tamar Science Park
> >Plymouth
> >PL6 8BT
> >
> >T: +44 (0)1752 791021
> >F: +44 (0)1752 791023
> >W: http://www.webbased.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 6
> >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:37:53 +0200
> >From: Markus Schaber <schabi at logix-tt.com>
> >Subject: Re: [postgis-users] QGIS 0.7 and PostGIS 1.0.4 works fines on
> >Debian
> >To: PostGIS Users Discussion <postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net>
> >Message-ID: <433A7281.2040203 at logix-tt.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> >Hi, David,
> >
> >david techer wrote:
> >
> >>aptitude show qgis | grep Version
> >>
> >>gave me
> >>
> >>Version : 0.6.0-2
> >>
> >>So it is an old version, actually no .deb has been released from QGIS
> >>Team :-(
> >
> >Well, at least today, it looks differently, there's a qgis 0.7.0-1 in
> >debian unstable.
> >
> >Most of the projects don't release .deb packages directly, but the
> >debian package maintainers grab the upstream sources and create nice
> >.debs out of them.
> >
> >Markus
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 7
> >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:18:53 +0200
> >From: Markus Schaber <schabi at logix-tt.com>
> >Subject: Re: [postgis-users] create a dataset with a name I already
> >used before
> >To: PostGIS Users Discussion <postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net>
> >Message-ID: <433A7C1D.2070305 at logix-tt.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> >Hi, Gregory,
> >
> >Gregory S. Williamson wrote:
> >>Giorgio --
> >>
> >>When a table is created with a spatial geometry column, an reference is
> >>put into a table called "geometry_columns" -- this might be what is
> >>causing your problem as when a table is fropped the reference remains in
> >>this table. In postGIS 0.7 this table looks like:
> >> Column | Type | Modifiers
> >>-------------------+------------------------+-----------
> >> f_table_catalog | character varying(256) | not null
> >> f_table_schema | character varying(256) | not null
> >> f_table_name | character varying(256) | not null
> >> f_geometry_column | character varying(256) | not null
> >> coord_dimension | integer | not null
> >> srid | integer | not null
> >> type | character varying(30) | not null
> >> attrelid | oid |
> >> varattnum | integer |
> >> stats | histogram2d |
> >>
> >>In 1.0 the table is similar but missing the last 3 columns.
> >
> >AFAIR, the last three columns are obsolete if you run PostgreSQL >= 8.0,
> >but not with PostGIS 1.X on a 7.4 PostgreSQL server.
> >
> >Markus
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 8
> >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 04:23:46 -0700
> >From: "Gregory S. Williamson" <gsw at globexplorer.com>
> >Subject: RE: [postgis-users] create a dataset with a name I already
> >used before
> >To: "PostGIS Users Discussion" <postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net>
> >Message-ID:
> ><71E37EF6B7DCC1499CEA0316A2568328024BB999 at loki.wc.globexplorer.net>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> >
> >
> >Interesting -- I hadn't noticed that; thanks for the correction!
> >G
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: postgis-users-bounces at postgis.refractions.net on behalf of Markus
> >Schaber
> >Sent: Wed 9/28/2005 4:18 AM
> >To: PostGIS Users Discussion
> >Cc:
> >Subject: Re: [postgis-users] create a dataset with a name I already used
> >before
> >Hi, Gregory,
> >
> >Gregory S. Williamson wrote:
> >>Giorgio --
> >>
> >>When a table is created with a spatial geometry column, an reference is
> >>put into a table called "geometry_columns" -- this might be what is
> >>causing your problem as when a table is fropped the reference remains in
> >>this table. In postGIS 0.7 this table looks like:
> >> Column | Type | Modifiers
> >>-------------------+------------------------+-----------
> >> f_table_catalog | character varying(256) | not null
> >> f_table_schema | character varying(256) | not null
> >> f_table_name | character varying(256) | not null
> >> f_geometry_column | character varying(256) | not null
> >> coord_dimension | integer | not null
> >> srid | integer | not null
> >> type | character varying(30) | not null
> >> attrelid | oid |
> >> varattnum | integer |
> >> stats | histogram2d |
> >>
> >>In 1.0 the table is similar but missing the last 3 columns.
> >
> >AFAIR, the last three columns are obsolete if you run PostgreSQL >= 8.0,
> >but not with PostGIS 1.X on a 7.4 PostgreSQL server.
> >
> >Markus
> >_______________________________________________
> >postgis-users mailing list
> >postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >http://postgis.refractions.net/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >
> >!DSPAM:433a7c5d114331796514491!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 9
> >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:33:25 +0200
> >From: G?rald Fenoy <djayweb at djayux.net>
> >Subject: Re: [postgis-users] QGIS 0.7 and PostGIS 1.0.4 works fines on
> >Debian
> >To: PostGIS Users Discussion <postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net>
> >Message-ID: <9D6E4C86-CBF5-4DA0-8BFF-54C7C4B0208F at djayux.net>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed
> >
> >Hi,
> >I currently work on an ebuild for qgis and so I would like to know if
> >anyone is able to save an edit ed postgis layer ?
> >Indeed with my qgis install I could edit postgis layer but when I try
> >to save the modified layer then I always get an error message which
> >says something like "invalid wkb".
> >
> >
> >
> >Le 28 sept. 05 à 12:37, Markus Schaber a écrit :
> >
> >>Hi, David,
> >>
> >>david techer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>aptitude show qgis | grep Version
> >>>
> >>>gave me
> >>>
> >>>Version : 0.6.0-2
> >>>
> >>>So it is an old version, actually no .deb has been released from
> >>>QGIS
> >>>Team :-(
> >>>
> >>
> >>Well, at least today, it looks differently, there's a qgis 0.7.0-1 in
> >>debian unstable.
> >>
> >>Most of the projects don't release .deb packages directly, but the
> >>debian package maintainers grab the upstream sources and create nice
> >>.debs out of them.
> >>
> >>Markus
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>postgis-users mailing list
> >>postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >>http://postgis.refractions.net/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >postgis-users mailing list
> >postgis-users at postgis.refractions.net
> >http://postgis.refractions.net/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >
> >
> >End of postgis-users Digest, Vol 35, Issue 51
> >*********************************************
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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