[Qgis-user] Qgis-user Digest, Vol 130, Issue 23

Fri Dec 16 13:46:38 PST 2016

That you could make the transition so easily is an argument that it doesn't
really matter which program is taught in school. If someone has some decent
GIS skills then can pretty quickly figure out how to do things in QGIS and
find resources to help them make the transition. That is what I did when I
got out of school and had some small consulting jobs and no ArcGIS license.

I want to transition to teaching mainly in QGIS, but it is difficult to
counter the argument that most job ads in the U.S. still list ArcGIS.
Portland is just ahead of the curve. ;) Here in Wisconsin the open source
revolution is still in the early stages.

Innisfree

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Edward Curran <curran.edward at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Arc is what is taught in US schools but the switch to Q is not that hard.
> in fact from a students perspective I feel that by learning from  different
> perspectives one can learn better. Here in Portland the whole public
> transit system switched onto Q and I intend to work in Q once I start out
> in the field. Arc is a fine suite of tools but they cost money - from what
> I can tell , learning Python, R and some kind of  open source graphics
> program, spreadsheet, also Q cost nothing licence wise and  are
> collectively a decent skill set to start out a career in GIS.
>
>  I complete my assignments in arc but pursue side projects in Q because I
> know once I am out of school I won't have the license anymore, plus Q can
> do the job just as well anyway.
>
> On Dec 16, 2016 3:35 AM, <qgis-user-request at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Send Qgis-user mailing list submissions to
>>         qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         qgis-user-request at lists.osgeo.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         qgis-user-owner at lists.osgeo.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Qgis-user digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice (Blumentrath, Stefan)
>>    2. Re: QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice (Erik Meerburg)
>>    3. Re: QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice (Nicolas Cadieux)
>>    4. Re: QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice (Innisfree McKinnon)
>>    5. Re: QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice (Nyall Dawson)
>>    6. Digitising a vector line by measurement (Paul Shapley)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:54:49 +0000
>> From: "Blumentrath, Stefan" <Stefan.Blumentrath at nina.no>
>> To: Markus Weidenbach <landconsult at freenet.de>,
>>         "qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org" <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice
>> Message-ID: <668886fbc5284208b2acc72879a2c545 at NINSRV23.nina.no>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> There is http://gisgeography.com/mapping-out-gis-software-landscape/
>>
>> Which hopelessly overrates ArcGIS, also because of a US centric
>> perspective. However, the Authors use Google trends and statistics on
>> GIS.SE to rank popularity of GIS. And if you do that QGIS is nr. 1 in
>> Europe at least. Note also the trend in the google trends curves, esp. If
>> you take Italy as an example.
>> People close to retirement can probably stick to Arc, but people who are
>> students now will have to learn open source in their career, no doubt...
>> Even in a rich country like norway a significat number of university
>> courses on GIS (esp. such related to ecology) switched to Open Source and
>> mostly QGIS...
>>
>> Cheers
>> Stefan
>> ________________________________________
>> Von: Qgis-user [qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] im Auftrag von Markus
>> Weidenbach [landconsult at freenet.de]
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. Dezember 2016 20:07
>> An: qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>> Betreff: [Qgis-user] QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice
>>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I was asked to give a 5 days international GIS training course at the
>> university and proposed to do it with QGIS. The program leader finally
>> insisted on doing it with ArcGIS arguing  that the students had better
>> chances to find a job knowing ArcGIS rather than QGIS. This argumentation
>> does not reflect my long professional experience as a GIS consultant at all!
>> But how can I proof that knowing QGIS is the better choice for young GIS
>> professionals than ArcGIS (or at least that both systems are equally
>> suited)?
>> Does anybody know any official numbers of GIS users worldwide or on the
>> worldwide application of QGIS over ArcGIS?
>>
>> I know the Master thesis from Boku Vienna (https://geoobserver.wordpress
>> .com/2016/02/09/arcgis-vs-qgis/) but it is focused on a technical
>> comparison of both systems only.
>> Also the link https://www.g2crowd.com/grid_r
>> eport/documents/gis-winter-2016-report is not really helpful because it
>> is based on some 40 reviews only and therefore not representative.
>> I really need to know some proven facts on the number of global QGIS
>> users and renown companies using QGIS worldwide.
>>
>> Thanks for your help in advance,
>> Markus
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Markus Weidenbach
>> landConsult.de
>> Geographical Information Management
>> and Environmental Planning
>> D-77815 Bühl
>> Germany
>> e.mail see: http://landConsult.de
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:04:35 +0100
>> From: Erik Meerburg <erik at geo-academie.nl>
>> To: qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>> Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice
>> Message-ID: <25c0ef57-a323-b686-078d-fbaa0ba6f2af at geo-academie.nl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> Markus,
>>
>> Imho, especially at a university you shouldn't teach specific software
>> at all. Teach the students spatial thinking, generic geospatial tools
>> and how (and why!) they work, knowing how to tackle a problem with (any)
>> GIS, and leave the software choice open to the students, where you as a
>> teacher can can offer to help them in two or even three different
>> specific brands.
>>
>> Any university that prescribes specific software where more then one
>> (good) option is available should be ashamed of itself. Think of it as a
>> Car University that only teaches Ford-specific things. No matter how you
>> look at it, that is bad. Even if they would promote QGIS or Open Source
>> GIS as a whole that way, it would still be bad because you would not be
>> tought about alternatives. Well, maybe that's one for the future ;-).
>>
>> Okay, one exception maybe: if the training includes writing new plugins
>> or other extras to an existing software project. In that case,
>> prescribing to build that for that specific project seems fine to me.
>> but if it's about *using *GIS, ah well. Think I've made my point clear
>> enough.
>>
>> So, maybe I'm pushing a bit away from the choice between Arc and Q, but
>> you might consider the case of doing (at least) both.
>>
>> Erik.
>>
>>
>> Op 15-12-2016 om 20:07 schreef Markus Weidenbach:
>> > Dear List,
>> >
>> > I was asked to give a 5 days international GIS training course at the
>> > university and proposed to do it with QGIS. The program leader finally
>> > insisted on doing it with ArcGIS arguing  that the students had better
>> > chances to find a job knowing ArcGIS rather than QGIS. This
>> > argumentation does not reflect my long professional experience as a
>> > GIS consultant at all!
>> > But how can I proof that knowing QGIS is the better choice for young
>> > GIS professionals than ArcGIS (or at least that both systems are
>> > equally suited)?
>> > Does anybody know any official numbers of GIS users worldwide or on
>> > the worldwide application of QGIS over ArcGIS?
>> >
>> > I know the Master thesis from Boku Vienna
>> > (https://geoobserver.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/arcgis-vs-qgis/) but it
>> > is focused on a technical comparison of both systems only.
>> > Also the link
>> > https://www.g2crowd.com/grid_report/documents/gis-winter-2016-report
>> > is not really helpful because it is based on some 40 reviews only and
>> > therefore not representative.
>> > I really need to know some proven facts on the number of global QGIS
>> > users and renown companies using QGIS worldwide.
>> >
>> > Thanks for your help in advance,
>> > Markus
>> >
>> > --
>> > Dr. Markus Weidenbach
>> > *landConsult.de*
>> > Geographical Information Management
>> > and Environmental Planning
>> > D-77815 Bühl
>> > Germany
>> > e.mail see: http://landConsult.de
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Qgis-user mailing list
>> > Qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>> > List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>>
>> --
>> Erik Meerburg Directeur Geo Academie (06) 2816 7631 erik at geo-academie.nl
>> /Op 1 april 2016 start Kwaliteit in Webservices weer Alle ins & outs
>> over geo op het web in 10 vrijdagen!/
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-user/attachments/
>> 20161215/22844316/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:38:30 -0700 (MST)
>> From: Nicolas Cadieux <nicolas.cadieux at archeotec.ca>
>> To: qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>> Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice
>> Message-ID: <04CDFE07-1FF5-4919-9DB9-171162EDB2C2 at archeotec.ca>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is a good question! My answer would be that students have a better
>> chance of having a job if the learn GIS and not a software.  The software
>> is only a tool!  If they have an ArcGIS licence at the university and can
>> use it year round with the university, they could learn with that.
>>
>> My experience is that afterwards, they will either pirate the software or
>> abandons GIS because they cannot pay for the software.  Also, more and more
>> students are on Macs and ArcGIS will not work unless you have a dual boot,
>> a virtual PC or a online licence.
>>
>> Also, if you want to just use a software as a technician and make GIS
>> research,  you can use ArcGIS.  If you want a really good paying job and
>> want to be able learn how to develop software and develop GIS, then QGIS or
>> OpenSource is the way to go!
>>
>> To think that learning GIS = learning a software is short sighted.  Would
>> you trust a statistician if all he learned in university is how to use a
>> particular software or would you prefer someone who really knows what
>> statistics are all about???
>>
>> Nicolas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Le 15 déc. 2016 à 14:18, Markus Weidenbach [via OSGeo.org] <
>> ml-node+s1560n5300057h28 at n6.nabble.com> a écrit :
>> >
>> > Dear List,
>> >
>> > I was asked to give a 5 days international GIS training course at the
>> university and proposed to do it with QGIS. The program leader finally
>> insisted on doing it with ArcGIS arguing  that the students had better
>> chances to find a job knowing ArcGIS rather than QGIS. This argumentation
>> does not reflect my long professional experience as a GIS consultant at all!
>> > But how can I proof that knowing QGIS is the better choice for young
>> GIS professionals than ArcGIS (or at least that both systems are equally
>> suited)?
>> > Does anybody know any official numbers of GIS users worldwide or on the
>> worldwide application of QGIS over ArcGIS?
>> >
>> > I know the Master thesis from Boku Vienna (
>> https://geoobserver.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/arcgis-vs-qgis/) but it is
>> focused on a technical comparison of both systems only.
>> > Also the link https://www.g2crowd.com/grid_r
>> eport/documents/gis-winter-2016-report is not really helpful because it
>> is based on some 40 reviews only and therefore not representative.
>> > I really need to know some proven facts on the number of global QGIS
>> users and renown companies using QGIS worldwide.
>> >
>> > Thanks for your help in advance,
>> > Markus
>> >
>> > --
>> > Dr. Markus Weidenbach
>> > landConsult.de
>> > Geographical Information Management
>> > and Environmental Planning
>> > D-77815 Bühl
>> > Germany
>> > e.mail see: http://landConsult.de
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Qgis-user mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> >
>> > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the
>> discussion below:
>> > http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/QGIS-vs-ArcGIS-in-Educat
>> ion-and-Practice-tp5300057.html
>> > To start a new topic under Quantum GIS - User, email
>> ml-node+s1560n4125267h38 at n6.nabble.com
>> > To unsubscribe from Quantum GIS - User, click here.
>> > NAML
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabbl
>> e.com/QGIS-vs-ArcGIS-in-Education-and-Practice-tp5300057p5300086.html
>> Sent from the Quantum GIS - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-user/attachments/
>> 20161215/4374616c/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 22:45:05 -0600
>> From: Innisfree McKinnon <innisfree.mckinnon at gmail.com>
>> To: Nicolas Cadieux <nicolas.cadieux at archeotec.ca>
>> Cc: qgis-user <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAFr9oOSOw7-C4R4=2CBb04pgSQyKj+MCVhDQQ7oXpCfRNTtAMg at mail.gm
>> ail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> This is an interesting discussion. I teach GIS classes at a small
>> university in the U.S. and while I completely agree with the concept of
>> teaching spatial concepts and not the software, in practice, this
>> distinction doesn't eliminate the need to choose in a university setting.
>> In practice GIS is taught through tutorials and tutorials are set up for
>> particular programs. You can't expect beginning students to go from
>> abstract concepts to multi-step analysis processes without some direction
>> as to how to use the software.
>>
>> Also, the students at my university get campus issued laptops that don't
>> have space to run GIS software, so they have to work in the one campus
>> computer lab where GIS is installed. I have to work with campus IT to make
>> sure the software is properly installed and updated. When students log in,
>> they don't have admin permissions so they can't choose to install QGIS if
>> it isn't already installed.
>>
>> I have be advocating for teaching open source software. But once students
>> get used to one software, they don't want to go back and try to figure out
>> another system. I did have students try out QGIS, but they weren't
>> excited.
>> I haven't used QGIS enough to discuss the differences and potential
>> benefits in particular situations, other than accessibility and
>> affordability.
>>
>> It shouldn't be one software or another, but students need to have a
>> reason
>> to learn a new platform. I know there are some articles/posts online
>> comparing, but I have never seen a class that actually integrated teaching
>> with more than one platform. Beginning college students are usually
>> frustrated enough just trying to understand one.
>>
>> I would love to hear suggestions for approaches or resources. Also, many
>> university instructors have a heavy teaching load and limited time to keep
>> up with shifting software. I'm pretty much the only person at my U. that
>> teaches GIS. I am being expected to teach everything related to geospatial
>> technologies...so it is tough to stay up to date without introducing
>> additional software to learn. I need to focus on how best to teach
>> concepts
>> not spend my time learning how to troubleshoot multiple software packages.
>>
>> Innisfree
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Nicolas Cadieux <
>> nicolas.cadieux at archeotec.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > This is a good question! My answer would be that students have a better
>> > chance of having a job if the learn GIS and not a software.  The
>> software
>> > is only a tool!  If they have an ArcGIS licence at the university and
>> can
>> > use it year round with the university, they could learn with that.
>> >
>> > My experience is that afterwards, they will either pirate the software
>> or
>> > abandons GIS because they cannot pay for the software.  Also, more and
>> more
>> > students are on Macs and ArcGIS will not work unless you have a dual
>> boot,
>> > a virtual PC or a online licence.
>> >
>> > Also, if you want to just use a software as a technician and make GIS
>> > research,  you can use ArcGIS.  If you want a really good paying job and
>> > want to be able learn how to develop software and develop GIS, then
>> QGIS or
>> > OpenSource is the way to go!
>> >
>> > To think that learning GIS = learning a software is short sighted.
>> Would
>> > you trust a statistician if all he learned in university is how to use a
>> > particular software or would you prefer someone who really knows what
>> > statistics are all about???
>> >
>> > Nicolas
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Le 15 déc. 2016 à 14:18, Markus Weidenbach [via OSGeo.org] <[hidden
>> email]
>> > <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5300086&i=0>> a écrit :
>> >
>> > Dear List,
>> >
>> > I was asked to give a 5 days international GIS training course at the
>> > university and proposed to do it with QGIS. The program leader finally
>> > insisted on doing it with ArcGIS arguing  that the students had better
>> > chances to find a job knowing ArcGIS rather than QGIS. This
>> argumentation
>> > does not reflect my long professional experience as a GIS consultant at
>> all!
>> > But how can I proof that knowing QGIS is the better choice for young GIS
>> > professionals than ArcGIS (or at least that both systems are equally
>> > suited)?
>> > Does anybody know any official numbers of GIS users worldwide or on the
>> > worldwide application of QGIS over ArcGIS?
>> >
>> > I know the Master thesis from Boku Vienna (https://geoobserver.
>> > wordpress.com/2016/02/09/arcgis-vs-qgis/) but it is focused on a
>> > technical comparison of both systems only.
>> > Also the link https://www.g2crowd.com/grid_report/documents/gis-winter-
>> > 2016-report is not really helpful because it is based on some 40 reviews
>> > only and therefore not representative.
>> > I really need to know some proven facts on the number of global QGIS
>> users
>> > and renown companies using QGIS worldwide.
>> >
>> > Thanks for your help in advance,
>> > Markus
>> >
>> > --
>> > Dr. Markus Weidenbach
>> > *landConsult.de <http://landConsult.de>*
>> > Geographical Information Management
>> > and Environmental Planning
>> > D-77815 Bühl
>> > Germany
>> > e.mail see: http://landConsult.de
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Qgis-user mailing list
>> > [hidden email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5300057&i=0>
>> > List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion
>> > below:
>> > http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/QGIS-vs-ArcGIS-in-
>> > Education-and-Practice-tp5300057.html
>> > To start a new topic under Quantum GIS - User, email [hidden email]
>> > <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5300086&i=1>
>> > To unsubscribe from Quantum GIS - User, click here.
>> > NAML
>> > <http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.
>> jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.
>> naml&base=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.
>> NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespace&
>> breadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.
>> naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_
>> email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > View this message in context: Re: QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and
>> Practice
>> > <http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/QGIS-vs-ArcGIS-in-Educa
>> tion-and-Practice-tp5300057p5300086.html>
>> > Sent from the Quantum GIS - User mailing list archive
>> > <http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/Quantum-GIS-User-f4125267.html> at
>> > Nabble.com.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Qgis-user mailing list
>> > Qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>> > List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> >
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-user/attachments/
>> 20161215/f3ec505a/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:40:43 +1000
>> From: Nyall Dawson <nyall.dawson at gmail.com>
>> To: Nicolas Cadieux <nicolas.cadieux at archeotec.ca>
>> Cc: qgis-user <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS vs ArcGIS in Education and Practice
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAB28AsjVENAiE3a+piN48UTO_kADGmuKt7+=Pfc_pbcdM81Apw at mail.
>> gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> On 16 December 2016 at 08:38, Nicolas Cadieux
>> <nicolas.cadieux at archeotec.ca> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > This is a good question! My answer would be that students have a better
>> > chance of having a job if the learn GIS and not a software.
>>
>> +1 to that. To put it bluntly, I think ANY GIS practitioner who can
>> only list experience with a single application (or vendor's suite) on
>> their resume is not at all competitive in today's market. There's
>> enough free open source or trial software available that it really
>> shows a lack of motivation for someone not to have skills in more than
>> one application.
>>
>> Nyall
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 11:35:19 +0000
>> From: Paul Shapley <p.shapley at gmail.com>
>> To: qgis-user List <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>
>> Subject: [Qgis-user] Digitising a vector line by measurement
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAK-x10nuqZUV2mkTgHg7yghp-01BqP32TjssDrgR_vEL8ttP_g at mail.
>> gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi Users,
>>
>> I'm looking for a way to digitise a vector line of say 13 metres, so when
>> i
>> click on point (A) i get feedback whilst i move the curser to point (B)
>> when i get to the 13m point.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> *Paul J. Shapley *MSc CGeog (GIS) FRGS
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-user/attachments/
>> 20161216/2fbc631f/attachment.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Qgis-user mailing list
>> Qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>> List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Qgis-user Digest, Vol 130, Issue 23
>> ******************************************
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-user mailing list
> Qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
> List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-user/attachments/20161216/c89a7d4c/attachment.html>