[Qgis-user] English only list or Main list?

Fri Oct 19 16:52:43 PDT 2018

Hi, 

I am not an English native speaker as well, and I am living in a country that does not understand my mother language. So I think that I understand the feelings of both "main counterparts", Nicolas Cadieux and Jürgen E. Fischer -- perhaps. 

It is sometimes hard to work with expectations and to overcome own shortcomings; so writing in English may be difficult in some cases. And it is certainly not an offence.  

To me, the discussions feels very kind from all sides: Everybody is trying to do the best and to understand the other side. 

Thanks a lot to those who try to help those who cannot adress their problem in English, and on the other side thanks to those who try to be understood by forcing themselves to write in the language that is most widely spoken, which is English. 

I am happy with the list as it works right now, multilingual but mainly English, and I hope I can get as much from it as I did until now -- and sometime in the future, can contribute as well. 

Best, 
Maria

> Am 2018-10-20 um 02:54 schrieb Tyler Veinot <tylerkveinot at gmail.com>:
> 
> Don't get me wrong I understand how this can be offensive and/or frustrating for both sides; but I if you just be patient and work through the communication barrier more problems will be solved.
> Ok, now I am done...
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 2:51 PM Tyler Veinot <tylerkveinot at gmail.com <mailto:tylerkveinot at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I suggest the solution of if you are having trouble understanding someone do to a language barrier just say so and/or ask for help. The people here, for the most part, are friendly and understanding. I cannot imagine someone not clarifying a communication, or parts there of, for someone like me, who only speaks a single language. I use google translate very often to translate plugin directions and documentation, and if that doesn't work I can ask the list for help.
> That is how I see it anyway
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 2:06 PM Alex M <tech_dev at wildintellect.com <mailto:tech_dev at wildintellect.com>> wrote:
> Nicolas,
> 
> I think you raise a valid points, and that the end of the day we need to
> be as welcoming as possible to the entire community. As a reminder for
> some https://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct/ <https://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct/>
> 
> The question is how do we best address the issue? The list of alternate
> language lists is good but not a complete solution. We should absolutely
> offer those when responding to a non-english post, and perhaps an
> explanation that English is the most common language on the list because
> it's comprehended by the most subscribers, so it is most likely to get
> you the most help. A lot of assumptions in that.
> 
> As a native English speaker, I actually do attempt to figure out the
> posts in other languages I have some familiarity with, and try to reply
> with a poorly translated response & the english response, along with a
> link to a language specific list if I know one as an alternative.
> 
> Sounds like we do need to fix the website to better direct people to
> other language lists if they prefer.
> 
> Any else have suggestions on how to improve this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex
> 
> 
> On 10/19/18 08:54, Nicolas Cadieux wrote:
> > Hi Jürgen,
> > 
> > You are not offended because you have probably never been repeatedly
> > told not to speak German in Germany.  For people who do not live in a
> > country where this is often the case, I understand they cannot relate to
> > what I am stating.  My rant is culturally - country specific and
> > perhaps, not appropriate for this forum.  I acknowledge this but I am
> > tying to make people aware of a situation that can really tick people off.
> > 
> > I understand this list is primarily used by people who understand
> > english and that this facilitates communication.  I usually publish in
> > English, or write on this list in English for this very same reason.   I
> > agree that pointing people to language specific list can help those who
> > have a poor understanding, or no understanding of English.  I have done
> > that in the past and have also translated messages from French or
> > Spanish to English when I see unilingual posts, even when I don't know
> > the answers to the questions. This way they can still get helped and
> > others can benefit from the post as you point out. Unfortunately, the
> > other lists that I have visited are not as dynamic as this one... but
> > that's another story.
> > 
> > You don't get my last point because, in your case (and in the case of
> > most developers) you have _chosen_ to communicate in English for all the
> > good reasons and are not regularly mocked at when using your mother
> > language in public.  You are not from a country where you are expected
> > to speak in English and to make that effort while anglophones (in my
> > case) are not making any efforts to communicate with you in French. 
> > While this is thankfully changing in Canada as more and more anglophones
> > learn French and make the efforts (and are actually starting to realize
> > the importance of learning more than just one language), this is not the
> > case in other countries like the US where Spanish speaking people are
> > often the target of outright racism and regularly told "this is an
> > English speaking country".
> > 
> > I too appreciate the use of English in this list, specially when the
> > writer is German, Austrian or from Iceland because Google translation
> > just does not cut it when talking in technical terms. I am simply
> > stating that this is a courtesy to be appreciated and not to be taken
> > for granted.  While Europeans regularly speak many languages, this is a
> > richness not appreciated in many parts of North America.
> > 
> > Yours truly,
> > 
> > Nicolas Cadieux
> > 
> > 
> > On 2018-10-19 10:22 AM, Jürgen E. Fischer wrote:
> >> Hi Nicolas,
> >>
> >> On Fri, 19. Oct 2018 at 09:07:36 -0400, Nicolas Cadieux wrote:
> >>> This is a public rant.  I find it extremely offensive to read
> >>> comments like
> >>> “this is the English list” to people who write to this list in any other
> >>> language than English.
> >> I don't.  This is the main user list and it's in English - because
> >> that's the
> >> language everyone here understands - if you don't understand English,
> >> there's
> >> not much point subscribing in the first place.
> >>
> >> Using a language other than that excludes the majority of the
> >> subscribers from
> >> benefiting from what is being said and from contributing to the
> >> discussion.
> >>
> >> And I don't find a response that clarifies this and also points to a
> >> better
> >> suited list offensive either.  Maybe even with a English translation
> >> if the
> >> original posting seems relevant to all.
> > 
> >>> If you disagree, please note that the QGIS site refers to this list
> >>> as the
> >>> “The MAIN list for user questions: used for discussion of QGIS in
> >>> general, as
> >>> well as specific questions regarding its installation and use.”  The
> >>> MAIN
> >>> list... not the ENGLISH list. This message is also repeated in other
> >>> languages as can be seen here.
> >>> https://www.qgis.org/fr/site/getinvolved/mailinglists.html# <https://www.qgis.org/fr/site/getinvolved/mailinglists.html#>
> >>> https://www.qgis.org/es/site/getinvolved/mailinglists.html# <https://www.qgis.org/es/site/getinvolved/mailinglists.html#>
> >> Hm, that might be a translation issue.  We used to point to local
> >> lists there
> >> (eg. fossgis-talk-liste at fossgis.de <mailto:fossgis-talk-liste at fossgis.de> for German) - but that's apparently
> >> meanwhile gone.If you are still offended, please keep in mind that
> >> QGIS is primarily, to my
> >> knowledge, a European effort made by people who have German,
> >> Austrio-German,
> >> Spanish, French, Italian and other as their first language and that
> >> they are
> >> developing in English, their second, third or forth language.  You
> >> should be
> >> grateful for their efforts to reach out the international community in a
> >> language spoken a cross the world.
> >> I don't get that point.   Developer's post in English here. 
> >> Developer's - at
> >> least I do - also prefer others to post in English here.  And if somebody
> >> posted in German, I'd probably point the person off-list to the above
> >> list.
> >>
> >>
> >> Jürgen
> >>
> >>
> >>
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