[Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only

Thu Mar 16 07:08:19 PDT 2023

I do appreciate the good advice to use DBMS, I am doing that too and
understand the advantages. I would never consider using a geopackage if I
thought that multiple people would want to edit them at the same time. But
that is not the case and that is not my problem. Sometimes, I just want to
keep geodata in a file on a network share and run the risk (in my case
insignificant) that the file will be corrupted by multi user access. This I
can do with shapefiles, but unlike the shapefiles, I have to set the
read-only flag on the geopackages stored on the network to get decent
rendering speed, without ever wanting to edit the files. I think wanting to
use file based storage for geodata in a networked environment is not
unreasonable, even if there is some danger of corruption. All file based
formats are probably subject to that risk, but I repeat, that issue is not
what I am talking about, just the rendering speed of data in a geopackage
that is not set to read-only.
I suspect that there is no solution and that I will just have to live with
this - as I have done for years. It is just a bit annoying. And I am
surprised how little it is discussed.

Árni

On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 13:46, Sadowski Jarosław via QGIS-User <
qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> +1
>
>
>
> Don’t use file formats to edit by multiple users. I was occurring some
> critical problems, as for example disappearing objects from database or
> LOOOOONG read for first time ☹
>
>
>
> Use PostgreSQL or other solutions like:
>
> Mergin Maps: Collect, Store and Analyze your Geo-Data Easily
> <https://merginmaps.com/>
>
> GIS Support » GIS.Box (gis--support-pl.translate.goog)
> <https://gis--support-pl.translate.goog/gis-box/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp>
>
>
>
>
> *_________________________________*
>
> *Jarosław Sadowski*
> Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska | *Biuro Strategii i Planowania,
> Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego*
> *Environmental Protection Team Leader **| Railway Subprogramme Strategy &
> Planning, Design & Engineering Department*
> e: jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl
> m: +48 532 720 230
>
> *From:* QGIS-User <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of *Bo
> Victor Thomsen via QGIS-User
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 16, 2023 2:35 PM
> *To:* qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not
> read-only
>
>
>
> UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o
> bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub
> załącznik.
>
>
>
> When any user on your network access the geopackage layer and (maybe
> unnecessarily) puts the layer in edit mode, there will be created 2 extra
> files in the same directory as the gpkg file resides in. And QGIS behaves
> different regarding *both* read and write operations when these file are
> present. This is probably the explanation of the longer reading times, even
> if nobody actually is editing the layer. When the user stops the editing
> mode for the layer, the 2 files disappear.
>
> You can check if this is the explanation:
>
>    1. Open the gpkg layer in read mode on one computer, check the access
>    speed of the same layer on *another* computer.
>    2. Set the layer in edit mode on the first computer, check the access
>    speed to the layer on the second computer
>    3. Revert the edit mode on the first computer, check the access speed
>    to the layer on the second computer.
>
> I am guessing, that situations 1 and 3 are fast, while situation 2 is
> slow.
>
> First of all: Never, ever try to implement some kind of multi-user editing
> on a file based format, where the file resides on a networked drive. It
> will never, ever work reliably. At some point 2 users will try to edit the
> same layer at the same time and it will go kaboom (I can read from your
> mails that you are aware about this). This goes for - probably - every file
> based format on a network drive.
>
> Secondly: What about making the gpkg file read-only at the network share
> level for most of the users. And only granting write access to the gpkg
> file for certain users that are instructed in *not* setting the layer in
> edit mode unless it's strictly necessary ?
>
> The best solution: Install Postgres/PostGIS on your NAS
>
> Med venlig hilsen / Best regards
>
>
>
> Bo Victor Thomsen
>
> Den 16-03-2023 kl. 13:49 skrev Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User:
>
> Thank you for the various responses.
>
> Let me be clear that what I am griping about is not the locking aspect
> that would allow multiple users to edit without conflict. I fully
> understand that the geopackage is not safe for that, nor is the shapefile
> and perhaps also the file geodatabase. In my case, the likelihood of two
> people wanting to edit the same geopackage is negligible, so I take my
> chances. My only gripe is the rendering speed of larger geopackages on a
> shared network, if they are not set specifically to read-only. That is not
> a problem with the shapefile and I think probably not with a file
> geodatabase. I am a long time user of geopackages in a networked
> environment and I will continue to use them - they are great - there is
> just this problem of rendering speed over a network.
>
>
>
> Árni
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 12:33, Sebastian Gutwein <bas at rdgland.com> wrote:
>
> This is all beyond my expertise but I have also struggled with the
> effective use of gpkg’s. In my case over google drive.
>
> Here is what SQLite (the underlying software for gpkgs) says about using a
> SQLite database on a network:
>
> https://www.sqlite.org/useovernet.html
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fuseovernet.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gF5jBExKrp2Hlks%2FQEHefiiG0FJFhqAG8fJ0VxBs4Kc%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> I hope that someday someone implements a system that allows this to work
> efficiently as gpkgs are better in many respects than shapefiles. Perhaps
> Geodiff could be part of that solution.
>
> https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FMerginMaps%2Fgeodiff&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bcngOeZeGv1iT%2BEEOV2Vtf3%2FZRXxYLBvgRuX0SMFOdI%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 8:04 AM Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User <
> qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Jorge
>
> I understand what you are pointing at and I use databases such as
> Postgres/PostGIS also with good results. The thing is that working with
> data in files sometimes has advantages and that is certainly how shapefiles
> have been used. The geopackage has been suggested as a replacement for the
> shapefile in the context of regular QGIS usage without any caveat saying
> that geopackages only replace the storage and transfer role of shapefiles
> and that geopackages should not be used for editing in a shared
> environment, as is perfectly possible with shapefiles and widely practiced.
> Not all users have access to database systems such as Postgres. I'm just
> looking for some clarity on best practices for the common scenario of
> working with QGIS using file based data in a network environment.
>
>
>
> Árni
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:47, Jorge Gustavo Rocha via QGIS-User <
> qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> For data storage and manipulation databases are suitable. Files are not.
>
> Geopackages are wonderful to transfer data between systems or to archive
> an entire project (snapshot of data, styles and the project itself).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jorge
>
> On 16/03/23 11:30, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:
>
> Thank you Jarosław. Isn't it strange that this was discussed 5 years ago
> and SMB file sharing is very common? Would a linux based NAS be able to use
> another protocol? What are my options for file based data sharing in QGIS?
> Abandoning geopackages is not a realistic option for me, but I could get a
> different kind of NAS unit, if that helps, what kind then? What amazes me
> is how little I see this discussed. There was a message in this thread this
> morning from Thomas Struller, but I am not sure it is about the same root
> problem, maybe Thomas can elaborate.
>
> Should this perhaps be discussed in another forum, closer to the
> development of geopackage/sqlite?
>
>
>
> Árni Geirsson
>
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 09:52, Sadowski Jarosław <jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl>
> wrote:
>
> Long story short: gpkg is bad idea for network drives as SMB/NAS etc
>
>
>
> Sources:
> Write-Ahead Logging (sqlite.org)
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fwal.html%23advantages&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vrWFTUkAozdYRmNNtVRiMz5YiGTzAso2UQDgEzkzr6w%3D&reserved=0>
>
> writing gpkg and sqlite on samba shares fails · Issue #628 · r-spatial/sf
> · GitHub
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fr-spatial%2Fsf%2Fissues%2F628&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aC2PYy3vqIWzu3XXWMjhggZawmN9dXQcunqObizOQNY%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *_________________________________*
>
> *Jarosław Sadowski*
> Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska | *Biuro Strategii i Planowania,
> Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego*
> *Environmental Protection Team Leader | Railway Subprogramme Strategy &
> Planning, Design & Engineering Department*
> e: jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl
> m: +48 532 720 230
>
> Centralny Port Komunikacyjny Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Warszawie, Aleje
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> *From:* QGIS-User <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of *Árni
> Geirsson via QGIS-User
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 16, 2023 10:18 AM
> *To:* jhubbslist at att.net
> *Cc:* qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Qgis-user] Geopackage slow on NAS if not
> read-only
>
>
>
> UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o
> bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub
> załącznik.
>
>
>
> Yes, as far as I know, the NAS unit uses SMB as the file sharing protocol.
> I used another NAS from QNAP before this one, also using SMB and with the
> same problem. I thought pretty much all of the Linux based NAS units were
> using SMB and if that is the problem, it should be widespread, but I don't
> see any signs of that. Is SMB a problem for geopackage?
>
> I did a quick test in QGIS: A dataset of 178.000 line features is rendered
> in about 1 second from a read only geopackage. When I remove the read only
> flag, it is rendered in about 5 seconds.
>
> If I store the geopackage on the local hard drive, the problem disappears,
> read-write or read-only does not matter.
>
> I have had suspicions about SMB being part of the problem but I don't know
> enough about file access deep down in the operating system to understand it.
>
>
>
> Árni Geirsson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 01:45, jhubbslist--- via QGIS-User <
> qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> Árni -
>
>
>
> Are you using SMB/CIFS to access this NAS, and are you using wifi or
> Ethernet to connect to it?
>
>
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
> On 3/15/23 3:30 PM, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:
>
> Hello all QGIS and geopackage users.
>
> I store my geopackages on a Synology RackStation NAS unit, like all other
> documents that are kept on a shared drive in the office. For larger
> datasets, the rendering is very slow, unless I open the properties dialog
> for the file in Windows and check the read only box. After that, the
> features are rendered blazingly fast. Nothing else is changed to see the
> dramatic difference in the rendering speed. Luckily, I don't need to edit
> many of the larger datasets, such as road networks and elevation contours
> and the geopackage can be kept read only. Shapefiles are not affected.
>
> What explains this and does anyone know how to solve the problem?
>
> Do other users experience this?
>
>
>
> Árni Geirsson
>
>
>
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