[Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only
jhubbslist at att.net
jhubbslist at att.net
Thu Mar 16 07:39:52 PDT 2023
You'd only be "living with it" because you choose to use the wrong tools
for the work and refuse to use the right ones. In this case, I see the
"wrong tools" here as 1) network-shared files for common r/w access 2)
the SMB/CIFS protocol in general 3) appliance-type file servers are
trash. You can try to make things better by standing up a proper
Linux-based file server and using NFS instead of SMB/CIFS but 1) is
enough of a problem that you'd only be throwing good work after bad.
If it suits your use cases, you might try implementing something like
git - which is after a fashion just another networked file-sharing
protocol - and use check-out/check-in controls to make changes to
centrally-stored files but this means you'll be slinging entire copies
of your datasets down to client machines on the regular; that may not
work well for you.
The best answer is PostgreSQL/PostGIS and that's going to take some time
and effort. Cost of doing business.
On 3/16/23 10:08 AM, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:
> I do appreciate the good advice to use DBMS, I am doing that too and
> understand the advantages. I would never consider using a geopackage
> if I thought that multiple people would want to edit them at the same
> time. But that is not the case and that is not my problem. Sometimes,
> I just want to keep geodata in a file on a network share and run the
> risk (in my case insignificant) that the file will be corrupted by
> multi user access. This I can do with shapefiles, but unlike the
> shapefiles, I have to set the read-only flag on the geopackages stored
> on the network to get decent rendering speed, without ever wanting to
> edit the files. I think wanting to use file based storage for geodata
> in a networked environment is not unreasonable, even if there is some
> danger of corruption. All file based formats are probably subject to
> that risk, but I repeat, that issue is not what I am talking about,
> just the rendering speed of data in a geopackage that is not set to
> read-only.
> I suspect that there is no solution and that I will just have to live
> with this - as I have done for years. It is just a bit annoying. And I
> am surprised how little it is discussed.
>
> Árni
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 13:46, Sadowski Jarosław via QGIS-User
> <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> Don’t use file formats to edit by multiple users. I was occurring
> some critical problems, as for example disappearing objects from
> database or LOOOOONG read for first time ☹
>
> Use PostgreSQL or other solutions like:
>
> Mergin Maps: Collect, Store and Analyze your Geo-Data Easily
> <https://merginmaps.com/>
>
> GIS Support » GIS.Box (gis--support-pl.translate.goog)
> <https://gis--support-pl.translate.goog/gis-box/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp>
>
>
> *_________________________________*
>
> *Jarosław Sadowski*
> Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska | /Biuro Strategii i
> Planowania, Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego/
> /Environmental Protection Team Leader //| Railway Subprogramme
> Strategy & Planning, Design & Engineering Department/
> e: jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl
> m: +48 532 720 230
>
> *From:*QGIS-User <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of
> *Bo Victor Thomsen via QGIS-User
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 16, 2023 2:35 PM
> *To:* qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS
> if not read-only
>
> UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż
> zadbać o bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim
> otworzysz link lub załącznik.
>
> When any user on your network access the geopackage layer and
> (maybe unnecessarily) puts the layer in edit mode, there will be
> created 2 extra files in the same directory as the gpkg file
> resides in. And QGIS behaves different regarding /both/ read and
> write operations when these file are present. This is probably the
> explanation of the longer reading times, even if nobody actually
> is editing the layer. When the user stops the editing mode for the
> layer, the 2 files disappear.
>
> You can check if this is the explanation:
>
> 1. Open the gpkg layer in read mode on one computer, check the
> access speed of the same layer on /another/ computer.
> 2. Set the layer in edit mode on the first computer, check the
> access speed to the layer on the second computer
> 3. Revert the edit mode on the first computer, check the access
> speed to the layer on the second computer.
>
> I am guessing, that situations 1 and 3 are fast, while situation 2
> is slow.
>
> First of all: Never, ever try to implement some kind of multi-user
> editing on a file based format, where the file resides on a
> networked drive. It will never, ever work reliably. At some point
> 2 users will try to edit the same layer at the same time and it
> will go kaboom (I can read from your mails that you are aware
> about this). This goes for - probably - every file based format on
> a network drive.
>
> Secondly: What about making the gpkg file read-only at the network
> share level for most of the users. And only granting write access
> to the gpkg file for certain users that are instructed in /not/
> setting the layer in edit mode unless it's strictly necessary ?
>
> The best solution: Install Postgres/PostGIS on your NAS
>
> Med venlig hilsen / Best regards
>
>
>
> Bo Victor Thomsen
>
> Den 16-03-2023 kl. 13:49 skrev Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User:
>
> Thank you for the various responses.
>
> Let me be clear that what I am griping about is not the
> locking aspect that would allow multiple users to edit without
> conflict. I fully understand that the geopackage is not safe
> for that, nor is the shapefile and perhaps also the file
> geodatabase. In my case, the likelihood of two people wanting
> to edit the same geopackage is negligible, so I take my
> chances. My only gripe is the rendering speed of larger
> geopackages on a shared network, if they are not set
> specifically to read-only. That is not a problem with the
> shapefile and I think probably not with a file geodatabase. I
> am a long time user of geopackages in a networked environment
> and I will continue to use them - they are great - there is
> just this problem of rendering speed over a network.
>
> Árni
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 12:33, Sebastian Gutwein
> <bas at rdgland.com> wrote:
>
> This is all beyond my expertise but I have also struggled
> with the effective use of gpkg’s. In my case over google
> drive.
>
> Here is what SQLite (the underlying software for gpkgs)
> says about using a SQLite database on a network:
>
> https://www.sqlite.org/useovernet.html
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fuseovernet.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gF5jBExKrp2Hlks%2FQEHefiiG0FJFhqAG8fJ0VxBs4Kc%3D&reserved=0>
>
> I hope that someday someone implements a system that
> allows this to work efficiently as gpkgs are better in
> many respects than shapefiles. Perhaps Geodiff could be
> part of that solution.
>
> https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FMerginMaps%2Fgeodiff&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bcngOeZeGv1iT%2BEEOV2Vtf3%2FZRXxYLBvgRuX0SMFOdI%3D&reserved=0>
>
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 8:04 AM Árni Geirsson via
> QGIS-User <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Jorge
>
> I understand what you are pointing at and I use
> databases such as Postgres/PostGIS also with good
> results. The thing is that working with data in files
> sometimes has advantages and that is certainly how
> shapefiles have been used. The geopackage has been
> suggested as a replacement for the shapefile in the
> context of regular QGIS usage without any caveat
> saying that geopackages only replace the storage and
> transfer role of shapefiles and that geopackages
> should not be used for editing in a shared
> environment, as is perfectly possible with shapefiles
> and widely practiced. Not all users have access to
> database systems such as Postgres. I'm just looking
> for some clarity on best practices for the common
> scenario of working with QGIS using file based data in
> a network environment.
>
> Árni
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:47, Jorge Gustavo Rocha via
> QGIS-User <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> For data storage and manipulation databases are
> suitable. Files are not.
>
> Geopackages are wonderful to transfer data between
> systems or to archive an entire project (snapshot
> of data, styles and the project itself).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jorge
>
> On 16/03/23 11:30, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:
>
> Thank you Jarosław. Isn't it strange that this
> was discussed 5 years ago and SMB file sharing
> is very common? Would a linux based NAS be
> able to use another protocol? What are my
> options for file based data sharing in QGIS?
> Abandoning geopackages is not a realistic
> option for me, but I could get a different
> kind of NAS unit, if that helps, what kind
> then? What amazes me is how little I see this
> discussed. There was a message in this thread
> this morning from Thomas Struller, but I am
> not sure it is about the same root problem,
> maybe Thomas can elaborate.
>
> Should this perhaps be discussed in another
> forum, closer to the development of
> geopackage/sqlite?
>
> Árni Geirsson
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 09:52, Sadowski
> Jarosław <jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl> wrote:
>
> Long story short: gpkg is bad idea for
> network drives as SMB/NAS etc
>
> Sources:
> Write-Ahead Logging (sqlite.org)
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fwal.html%23advantages&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vrWFTUkAozdYRmNNtVRiMz5YiGTzAso2UQDgEzkzr6w%3D&reserved=0>
>
> writing gpkg and sqlite on samba shares
> fails · Issue #628 · r-spatial/sf · GitHub
> <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fr-spatial%2Fsf%2Fissues%2F628&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aC2PYy3vqIWzu3XXWMjhggZawmN9dXQcunqObizOQNY%3D&reserved=0>
>
> *_________________________________*
>
> *Jarosław Sadowski*
> Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska |
> /Biuro Strategii i Planowania,
> Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu
> Kolejowego/
> /Environmental Protection Team Leader |
> Railway Subprogramme Strategy & Planning,
> Design & Engineering Department/
> e: jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl
> <mailto:jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl>
> m: +48 532 720 230
>
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> *From:*QGIS-User
> <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On
> Behalf Of *Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 16, 2023 10:18 AM
> *To:* jhubbslist at att.net
> *Cc:* qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Qgis-user]
> Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only
>
> UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp.
> z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o
> bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji.
> Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub
> załącznik.
>
> Yes, as far as I know, the NAS unit uses
> SMB as the file sharing protocol. I used
> another NAS from QNAP before this one,
> also using SMB and with the same problem.
> I thought pretty much all of the Linux
> based NAS units were using SMB and if that
> is the problem, it should be widespread,
> but I don't see any signs of that. Is SMB
> a problem for geopackage?
>
> I did a quick test in QGIS: A dataset of
> 178.000 line features is rendered in about
> 1 second from a read only geopackage. When
> I remove the read only flag, it is
> rendered in about 5 seconds.
>
> If I store the geopackage on the local
> hard drive, the problem disappears,
> read-write or read-only does not matter.
>
> I have had suspicions about SMB being part
> of the problem but I don't know enough
> about file access deep down in the
> operating system to understand it.
>
> Árni Geirsson
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 01:45,
> jhubbslist--- via QGIS-User
> <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>> wrote:
>
> Árni -
>
> Are you using SMB/CIFS to access this
> NAS, and are you using wifi or
> Ethernet to connect to it?
>
> - Jeff
>
> On 3/15/23 3:30 PM, Árni Geirsson via
> QGIS-User wrote:
>
> Hello all QGIS and geopackage users.
>
> I store my geopackages on a
> Synology RackStation NAS unit,
> like all other documents that are
> kept on a shared drive in the
> office. For larger datasets, the
> rendering is very slow, unless I
> open the properties dialog for the
> file in Windows and check the read
> only box. After that, the features
> are rendered blazingly fast.
> Nothing else is changed to see the
> dramatic difference in the
> rendering speed. Luckily, I don't
> need to edit many of the larger
> datasets, such as road networks
> and elevation contours and
> the geopackage can be kept read
> only. Shapefiles are not affected.
>
> What explains this and does anyone
> know how to solve the problem?
>
> Do other users experience this?
>
> Árni Geirsson
>
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