[Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only

Karl Magnus Jönsson Karl-Magnus.Jonsson at kristianstad.se
Thu Mar 16 23:52:42 PDT 2023 

Hi!
If just storing and reading is the scope and not editing, maybe another file format would be suitable. Like https://flatgeobuf.org/. Not tested by me but could be a good alternative.

Karl-Magnus Jönsson


Från: QGIS-User <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> För Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User
Skickat: den 16 mars 2023 15:08
Till: Sadowski Jarosław <jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl>
Kopia: qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
Ämne: Re: [Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only

I do appreciate the good advice to use DBMS, I am doing that too and understand the advantages. I would never consider using a geopackage if I thought that multiple people would want to edit them at the same time. But that is not the case and that is not my problem. Sometimes, I just want to keep geodata in a file on a network share and run the risk (in my case insignificant) that the file will be corrupted by multi user access. This I can do with shapefiles, but unlike the shapefiles, I have to set the read-only flag on the geopackages stored on the network to get decent rendering speed, without ever wanting to edit the files. I think wanting to use file based storage for geodata in a networked environment is not unreasonable, even if there is some danger of corruption. All file based formats are probably subject to that risk, but I repeat, that issue is not what I am talking about, just the rendering speed of data in a geopackage that is not set to read-only.
I suspect that there is no solution and that I will just have to live with this - as I have done for years. It is just a bit annoying. And I am surprised how little it is discussed.

Árni


On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 13:46, Sadowski Jarosław via QGIS-User <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>> wrote:
+1

Don’t use file formats to edit by multiple users. I was occurring some critical problems, as for example disappearing objects from database or LOOOOONG read for first time ☹

Use PostgreSQL or other solutions like:
Mergin Maps: Collect, Store and Analyze your Geo-Data Easily<https://merginmaps.com/>
GIS Support » GIS.Box (gis--support-pl.translate.goog)<https://gis--support-pl.translate.goog/gis-box/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp>



_________________________________

Jarosław Sadowski
Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska | Biuro Strategii i Planowania, Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego
Environmental Protection Team Leader | Railway Subprogramme Strategy & Planning, Design & Engineering Department
e: jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl<mailto:jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl>
m: +48 532 720 230
From: QGIS-User <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>> On Behalf Of Bo Victor Thomsen via QGIS-User
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 2:35 PM
To: qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>
Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only

UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub załącznik.


When any user on your network access the geopackage layer and (maybe unnecessarily) puts the layer in edit mode, there will be created 2 extra files in the same directory as the gpkg file resides in. And QGIS behaves different regarding both read and write operations when these file are present. This is probably the explanation of the longer reading times, even if nobody actually is editing the layer. When the user stops the editing mode for the layer, the 2 files disappear.

You can check if this is the explanation:

  1.  Open the gpkg layer in read mode on one computer, check the access speed of the same layer on another computer.
  2.  Set the layer in edit mode on the first computer, check the access speed to the layer on the second computer
  3.  Revert the edit mode on the first computer, check the access speed to the layer on the second computer.
I am guessing, that situations 1 and 3 are fast, while situation 2 is slow.

First of all: Never, ever try to implement some kind of multi-user editing on a file based format, where the file resides on a networked drive. It will never, ever work reliably. At some point 2 users will try to edit the same layer at the same time and it will go kaboom (I can read from your mails that you are aware about this). This goes for - probably - every file based format on a network drive.

Secondly: What about making the gpkg file read-only at the network share level for most of the users. And only granting write access to the gpkg file for certain users that are instructed in not setting the layer in edit mode unless it's strictly necessary ?

The best solution: Install Postgres/PostGIS on your NAS

Med venlig hilsen / Best regards



Bo Victor Thomsen
Den 16-03-2023 kl. 13:49 skrev Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User:
Thank you for the various responses.
Let me be clear that what I am griping about is not the locking aspect that would allow multiple users to edit without conflict. I fully understand that the geopackage is not safe for that, nor is the shapefile and perhaps also the file geodatabase. In my case, the likelihood of two people wanting to edit the same geopackage is negligible, so I take my chances. My only gripe is the rendering speed of larger geopackages on a shared network, if they are not set specifically to read-only. That is not a problem with the shapefile and I think probably not with a file geodatabase. I am a long time user of geopackages in a networked environment and I will continue to use them - they are great - there is just this problem of rendering speed over a network.

Árni


On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 12:33, Sebastian Gutwein <bas at rdgland.com<mailto:bas at rdgland.com>> wrote:
This is all beyond my expertise but I have also struggled with the effective use of gpkg’s. In my case over google drive.
Here is what SQLite (the underlying software for gpkgs) says about using a SQLite database on a network:
https://www.sqlite.org/useovernet.html<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fuseovernet.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gF5jBExKrp2Hlks%2FQEHefiiG0FJFhqAG8fJ0VxBs4Kc%3D&reserved=0>

I hope that someday someone implements a system that allows this to work efficiently as gpkgs are better in many respects than shapefiles. Perhaps Geodiff could be part of that solution.
https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FMerginMaps%2Fgeodiff&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bcngOeZeGv1iT%2BEEOV2Vtf3%2FZRXxYLBvgRuX0SMFOdI%3D&reserved=0>

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 8:04 AM Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>> wrote:
Hi Jorge
I understand what you are pointing at and I use databases such as Postgres/PostGIS also with good results. The thing is that working with data in files sometimes has advantages and that is certainly how shapefiles have been used. The geopackage has been suggested as a replacement for the shapefile in the context of regular QGIS usage without any caveat saying that geopackages only replace the storage and transfer role of shapefiles and that geopackages should not be used for editing in a shared environment, as is perfectly possible with shapefiles and widely practiced. Not all users have access to database systems such as Postgres. I'm just looking for some clarity on best practices for the common scenario of working with QGIS using file based data in a network environment.

Árni


On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:47, Jorge Gustavo Rocha via QGIS-User <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>> wrote:

Hi,

For data storage and manipulation databases are suitable. Files are not.

Geopackages are wonderful to transfer data between systems or to archive an entire project (snapshot of data, styles and the project itself).

Regards,

Jorge
On 16/03/23 11:30, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:
Thank you Jarosław. Isn't it strange that this was discussed 5 years ago and SMB file sharing is very common? Would a linux based NAS be able to use another protocol? What are my options for file based data sharing in QGIS? Abandoning geopackages is not a realistic option for me, but I could get a different kind of NAS unit, if that helps, what kind then? What amazes me is how little I see this discussed. There was a message in this thread this morning from Thomas Struller, but I am not sure it is about the same root problem, maybe Thomas can elaborate.
Should this perhaps be discussed in another forum, closer to the development of geopackage/sqlite?

Árni Geirsson

On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 09:52, Sadowski Jarosław <jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl<mailto:jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl>> wrote:
Long story short: gpkg is bad idea for network drives as SMB/NAS etc

Sources:
Write-Ahead Logging (sqlite.org)<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fwal.html%23advantages&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vrWFTUkAozdYRmNNtVRiMz5YiGTzAso2UQDgEzkzr6w%3D&reserved=0>
writing gpkg and sqlite on samba shares fails · Issue #628 · r-spatial/sf · GitHub<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fr-spatial%2Fsf%2Fissues%2F628&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aC2PYy3vqIWzu3XXWMjhggZawmN9dXQcunqObizOQNY%3D&reserved=0>




_________________________________

Jarosław Sadowski
Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska | Biuro Strategii i Planowania, Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego
Environmental Protection Team Leader | Railway Subprogramme Strategy & Planning, Design & Engineering Department
e: jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl<mailto:jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl>
m: +48 532 720 230

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From: QGIS-User <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>> On Behalf Of Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 10:18 AM
To: jhubbslist at att.net<mailto:jhubbslist at att.net>
Cc: qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Qgis-user] Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only

UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub załącznik.

Yes, as far as I know, the NAS unit uses SMB as the file sharing protocol. I used another NAS from QNAP before this one, also using SMB and with the same problem. I thought pretty much all of the Linux based NAS units were using SMB and if that is the problem, it should be widespread, but I don't see any signs of that. Is SMB a problem for geopackage?
I did a quick test in QGIS: A dataset of 178.000 line features is rendered in about 1 second from a read only geopackage. When I remove the read only flag, it is rendered in about 5 seconds.
If I store the geopackage on the local hard drive, the problem disappears, read-write or read-only does not matter.
I have had suspicions about SMB being part of the problem but I don't know enough about file access deep down in the operating system to understand it.

Árni Geirsson



On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 01:45, jhubbslist--- via QGIS-User <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>> wrote:
Árni -

Are you using SMB/CIFS to access this NAS, and are you using wifi or Ethernet to connect to it?

- Jeff

On 3/15/23 3:30 PM, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:
Hello all QGIS and geopackage users.
I store my geopackages on a Synology RackStation NAS unit, like all other documents that are kept on a shared drive in the office. For larger datasets, the rendering is very slow, unless I open the properties dialog for the file in Windows and check the read only box. After that, the features are rendered blazingly fast. Nothing else is changed to see the dramatic difference in the rendering speed. Luckily, I don't need to edit many of the larger datasets, such as road networks and elevation contours and the geopackage can be kept read only. Shapefiles are not affected.
What explains this and does anyone know how to solve the problem?
Do other users experience this?

Árni Geirsson


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Geomaster, LDA

"Take the open source journey with us"



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Mobile: +351 910 333 888 (cellular)



Rua Afonso Palmeira, 31, 7<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fmaps%2Fsearch%2FRua%2BAfonso%2BPalmeira%2C%2B31%2C%2B7%3Fentry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353712104%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Gghx2QBaFcLS6wBLy1a9MuExneqWyKKIldi0ExKgwA4%3D&reserved=0> D

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