[OSGeo-Conf] FOSS4G

[Jonathan]

Hi Till,
On the issue of conferences, I'd like to chip in. I've never organised 
one, but my other half has so I know how much work they are, so plenty 
of respect for the effort you've both put into them.

I suppose I'd ask two questions of any given element of a conference - 
Is it necessary, and how much should it cost? Conference centres are 
very expensive, this much is clear, but does FOSS4G really need a single 
space that can handle all of its delegates at once for the plenaries? 
How much does that add to the cost? Would universities be cheaper as 
hosts? They certainly have the facilities, including wi-fi, canteens, 
and (potentially) cheap accommodation; I note that the FOSDEM conference 
( > 5000 delegates for all of whom it is free) is hosted yearly at a 
university in Brussels.

What about the "freebies" that are included in the welcome pack - 
conference branded pens and t-shirts? Are they really necessary? Ok, 
maybe the pens (not everyone remembers to bring one, they get lost), but 
the t-shirts? Bottled water (some conferences do that)? Etc. I suspect 
these little things add up.

You make a good point Till about other costs to the conference but a 
counter-point: I can *choose* how much I pay for the other elements.
I'm paying less than €40 per night accommodation for Bonn - sure there 
are options for €100 a night, but they're not for me. It doesn't matter 
who's paying (work or me), I always seek out a cheaper alternative.
Food is likewise - Looking at the invoice for Bonn I can see it says 
"Food and beverages: ...  € 150.00" - (excluding the Gala dinner), I'm 
sure there's a reason for it, but to me that's a staggeringly high cost, 
that's considerably more than I spend on a *month* of food at home (UK). 
My last holiday (mid-price European country) my total food cost came out 
to €16 a day.

Travel too the delegates get a choice in - I could fly Ryanair for €35, 
but I refuse to fly so will spend about €130 on trains (book early! :-) 
). But that's my choice. (If a delegate really wanted to they could 
hitch-hike and/or couch-surf to get the costs to near 0.)
Unfortunately for someone wishing to attend they don't get a choice in 
the conference fees.
I'd also point out, as before, that the high cost of the fees also makes 
it difficult for lower-income attendees. OSGeo has as one of its stated 
goals "be a welcoming and inclusive worldwide organization at all 
levels;". I'm not sure what the solution to this is, but the 
"studentship" programme is good, as is the travel-grant.

Comparison with a few other conferences of a similar or larger size I'm 
aware of or quickly found:
FOSDEM - already mentioned.
ARVO - a 5 day conference that moves around the USA with > 11,000 
clinical delegates - it doesn't include food, but the late-registration 
conference fees for Non-Members (so their most expensive fee) - $269! 
(http://www.arvo.org/Conferences_and_Courses/Imaging_Conference/2016/Registration/).
http://opensourcebridge.org/attend - 500 delegates, 4 day conference - 
$350, but an option to pay more ($500) if you want to be a "supporter" - 
that might work for FOSS4G.

That said, FOSS4G isn't the most expensive conference either. LinuxCon 
(3 days) is $800 at early-bird rates, going up to $950.

There are a few ideas scattered above that may make it cheaper (or maybe 
won't). Another one - have the sponsors sponsor explicit things; not 
just the "gala", but things like the pens (or even supply them), or 
maybe the meals ("this food sponsored by GeoWorldSpatialMapGlobalGIS Inc").

A counter point to my own argument though - the increasing delegate 
count shows that plenty of people (or their companies in many cases) are 
willing to pay the current rates.

Cheers,
Jonathan


On 12/05/2016 10:34, till.adams at fossgis.de wrote:
> Hi Maxi,
>
> I pick up your discussion, but break your email into single issues, so 
> that anyone interested in one topic can jump in.
>
> Your point: "FOSS4G CONFERENCES
> This is the momentum. Here i have always get inspiration from 
> listening talks, discussing with people, talking with friends. It used 
> to be a very inclusive event: the peak of the FOSS4G iceberg. I'm 
> saying "it use to be" because prices are year by year growing so much 
> that today they represent a barrier. I would have liked to came with 5 
> people from my group but this is simply not economically sustainable: 
> as a result the younger will lose this opportunity to join the 
> community and breath the breeze of Open innovation. If i compare 
> FOSS4G prices (rate per day) with other comparable events they are 
> higher. I personally don't need fancy locations and I am more 
> interested in involving more people rather then having high revenue 
> for the foundation. I want to meet students, people from low income 
> countries, small companies, start-up. Let's find a way to be Open.."
>
> is one view on FOSS4G (negotiating that OSGeo has to deal with 
> business is another one, and I have a totally different opinion here, 
> but that's another issue).
>
>
> As the "responsible" person for this years FOSS4G (and also one of the 
> nerds, that took every FOSS4G since 2005 with one exception in 2014) I 
> am also not really happy with our prices either, although I must say, 
> that we are nearly equal to 2014, but more expensive than 2015, that's 
> true.
>
> But, some important issues to take into account before we (you?) 
> continue to dream:
>
> 1. People tend to see only the prices for the conference. If we could 
> save 30% of our costs and being able to offer tickets for 400€ instead 
> of 590€ (Early Bird) wouldn't make that big difference in total costs 
> for the attendees at the end. This because there are also travel and 
> accommodation costs which are out of our influence (see, my flight to 
> Seoul last year was about 1200€, accommodation 700€ - looking at this, 
> a conference fee of 400.- compared to 600.- does not really make that 
> big difference). Even in a city like Bonn, where accommodation rates 
> are moderate, you should at least calculate 70€/day, plus food, beer, 
> etc.
> So, the fact, that tickets are more expensive than last year couldn't 
> be the only reason not being able to bring 5 people to Bonn. Also this 
> view completely negotiates that there are definitely costs, that we 
> have to cover.
>
> 2. Tieing on here, although this is another discussion: The 
> requirements of OSGeo bear some parameters, that really rise up costs: 
> Hire a conference center, need to have a PCO and include the Gala 
> Event. These are all nice ideas, but of course they all result in 
> higher costs and with that in higher ticket fees. As long as OSGeo 
> (especially you should remember ;-)) refuses to give a 100% financial 
> backup, the calculation of income to reach the break even drives LOC's 
> to calculate much more carefully - and with that with higher fees.
>
> 3. Regarding the most expensive part of our conference - the 
> conference center: In most cities it is simply impossible finding a 
> location where you could run a conference with that a size of up to 
> 1000 attendees. And hiring a conference center is expensive, 
> regardless where in the world.
>
>
> This just as a quick review - having time to think little more, I am 
> sure I'd find many other reasons, why we should stop dreaming here 
> when thinking about having a global conference that everybody is able 
> to join, where you just meet good friends and have some nice beers 
> together. Everything simply does not work as long as there is no 
> source of income that makes LOC's and OSGeo independent of financial 
> success of a FOSS4G conference.
>
>
> Perhaps there is a need for a discussion and also a decision, which 
> focus we/OSGeo want/s to give our annual global event. As a person 
> from the business side (which is important as engine for development 
> of the projects, see recent email from Jeroen), I say that one global 
> professional conference is definitely required. And having something 
> like studentship programme, travel grants helps to enable at least 
> some people to join that conference, that normally couldn't afford it. 
> But most of them couldn't even afford attending anyway, even if 
> conference fees were less than half of what they are.
> Perhaps the spirit of the conference that everybody could afford 
> (especially because of travel costs), must be carried out on a 
> regional/continental scale ?
>
> BTW: Yes, it's me arguing like this, and I am one of the last guys 
> that fighted as long as possible to keep our FOSSGIS conference free 
> of charge ;-)
>
>
> Last point - regarding your people from your group: If they are 
> students, they could have applied for our studentship programme. They 
> can try, but looks like that we are nearly complete here...
>
> Just my 2 (long) cents.
>
> Till
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 2016-05-11 11:01, schrieb massimiliano cannata:
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: <conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org [1]>
>> Date: 2016-05-11 10:41 GMT+02:00
>> Subject: Incubation, osgeo-EU and FOSS4G
>> To: massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch [2]
>>
>> Your message has been rejected, probably because you are not
>>  subscribed to the mailing list and the lists policy is to prohibit
>>  non-members from posting to it.  If you think that your messages are
>>  being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at
>>  conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org [3].
>>
>> ---------- Messaggio inoltrato ----------
>> From: Massimiliano Cannata <massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch [4]>
>> To: OSGeo Board <board at lists.osgeo.org [5]>, OSGeo Discussions
>> <discuss at lists.osgeo.org [6]>, OSGeo Incubator Committee
>> <incubator at lists.osgeo.org [7]>, "<conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
>> [8]>" <conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org [9]>
>> Cc:
>> Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:41:55 +0200
>> Subject: Incubation, osgeo-EU and FOSS4G
>>
>> Sorry for cross-posting but these recent topics (which took place on
>> different lists) took myself to reflect about our foundation.
>>
>> Summary of the long mail below (for those who dont have time go trough
>> :-D )
>>
>> =================================================================
>>
>> DISCUSSION: only a small number of people take part to the
>> discussions, why?
>>
>> INCUBATION: we care about high quality, long term sustainable and
>> reliable solutions, who cares of governance models?
>>
>> BUSINESS AND OSGEO(EU): we are a foundation of people not of
>> companies, we dont have to do business!
>>
>> FOSS4G CONFERENCES: fees are a barrier, we are building exclusive
>> events rather then being inclusive, who care about revenue!
>>
>> More explanation of my thoughts (for those who have time to spend and
>> go deeper :-o )
>>
>> ==================================================================
>>
>> Im an environmental engineer and thus far from being a rigorous
>> informatics or an economist or a social science expert. Nevertheless
>> in these last 20 years (from Bangkok to Seoul without missing a single
>> one) I had the opportunity to met those words, make some experience
>> and learn a bit.
>>  Thats to say that i do not have the truth in my pockets and Im open
>> to change my view.
>>
>> DISCUSSIONS
>>  First a small consideration, those topics are discussed by a small
>> number of people with respect of the total members of our community.
>> It means that A) the arguments are not of high interest B) silent
>> people are shy and do not feel to be in the position to add value to
>> the conversation C) people think it is a waste of time.
>>  This is often happening and my impression is that people just dont
>> care to much of these political issues but only of technical matters.
>>
>> INCUBATION
>>  My understanding is that OSGeo trough the incubation process aims at
>> guarantee high quality, long term sustainable and reliable solutions
>> to show that FOSS Geospatial technology is valuable and credible. In
>> this view the governance model adopted (PSC, dictator or whatever) is
>> of secondary importance to me as long as the software respond to the
>> above mentioned requisites. I personally prefer clear process rather
>> then open-in-words but fake-in-fact rules.
>>
>> BUSINESS AND OSGEO(EU)
>>  OSGeo is an organisation of people. Not of sectors or groups or
>> parties. Of course people belong to categories and this tend to
>> influence the way they see the world. For this reason people tend to
>> contribute to the community for their competence and interest within
>> committees or working groups. It is not the mandate of OSGeo making
>> lobbies or acquire mandates. To me OSGeo should get together great
>> projects and people to offer the world the possibility of advance and
>> improve the life of people. I know It is a bit exaggerated but when i
>> think of open source i see it as a mean of equity: like making
>> accessible food and sanitation and drinking water and medicine to
>> everyone in the world. Making tools for a better governance available
>> to all.
>>  OSGeo is about mutually sharing experiences, ideas, solutions not
>> building business. For this LocationTech which is a community of
>> companies / entities I understood is more suited.
>>  So my vision is OSGeo focused on people not on companies or groups.
>> Splitting the community is not an advancement but a loss of value.
>>
>> FOSS4G CONFERENCES
>>  This is the momentum. Here i have always get inspiration from
>> listening talks, discussing with people, talking with friends. It used
>> to be a very inclusive event: the peak of the FOSS4G iceberg. Im
>> saying "it use to be" because prices are year by year growing so much
>> that today they represent a barrier. I would have liked to came with 5
>> people from my group but this is simply not economically sustainable:
>> as a result the younger will lose this opportunity to join the
>> community and breath the breeze of Open innovation. If i compare
>> FOSS4G prices (rate per day) with other comparable events they are
>> higher. I personally dont need fancy locations and I am more
>> interested in involving more people rather then having high revenue
>> for the foundation. I want to meet students, people from low income
>> countries, small companies, start-up. Lets find a way to be Open..
>>
>> MAY THE FOSS BE WITH YOU !
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Dr. Eng. Massimiliano Cannata
>> Responsabile Area Geomatica
>> Istituto Scienze della Terra
>> Scuola Universitaria Professionale della Svizzera Italiana
>> Via Trevano, c.p. 72
>> CH-6952 Canobbio-Lugano
>> Tel: +41 (0)58 666 62 14
>> Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org
>> [2] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch
>> [3] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org
>> [4] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch
>> [5] mailto:board at lists.osgeo.org
>> [6] mailto:discuss at lists.osgeo.org
>> [7] mailto:incubator at lists.osgeo.org
>> [8] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
>> [9] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
>
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