[OSGeo-Conf] [OSGeo-Discuss] FOSS4G

Fri May 20 10:00:26 PDT 2016

Hi Till,
Thanks for your response and insights. I don't think we can know how many (if any) potential delegates have decided not to go and for what reason without asking, which may be a worthwhile act at some point.

    "Anyhow we want to reduce that to an absolute minimum. But knowing our
    community, you know that T-Shirets are nearly the most important thing
    you receive on a FOSs4G ;-). In general, compared to the other costs,
    the conference bag will be around 5 % of the total fee. So not really
    worth talking about that."

I'm afraid I must disagree: a 5% saving is €25-€35 per delegate, and it adds up if there are other places savings can be found.
I'd also ask whether anyone has asked the community whether they want the "free" T-shirts etc, rather than make the assumption they do? If you sold the shirts at the conference then you'd have another potential income source and could reduce the fees for those who do not wish to have a t-shirt. Personally if I wanted a t-shirt, I'd buy a t-shirt, I'm pretty conventional like that. :-)

    "But if you hire WCCB you have to choose the one possible caterer."
Maybe this is something worth considering for future venue bids: are the costs surrounding the venue also competitive? It sounds like in this case (and I suspect it's probably fairly common in the industry) they're using the venue as a loss-leader and making up the difference on the other costs (like food).

    "Don't forget people from other continents. You as European *could* take the train, Sanghee from Seoul could, but would take him some weeks I guess ;-) !"
I hear the trans-Siberian railway is very pleasant. :-)
But yes low-cost over-land travel isn't an option for long-distance conferences. Fortunately FOSS4G changes continent so delegates can choose if they're willing to go trans-continental or not. On top of that, for certain sectors, delegates are *never* going to travel that far anyway (local govt especially). I think the airfare costs are a red-herring - they're another choice the delegates can choose.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

---- On Fri, 13 May 2016 11:46:45 +0100 <till.adams at foss4g2016.org> wrote ---- 

Dear Jonathan, 

some good points and some comments from me inline. Before that, I must 
really say, that I do not think, that our fees are exceptional high and 
that the fees are really the problem that preclude many of attendees. 
But I started this discussion, so I will give some comments (also 
knowing that doing something always brings people into the arena, that 
have different meanings). 

But I also reduce the "CC"'s to the converence dev-list. Feel free to 
share elsewhere ;-) 

> I suppose I'd ask two questions of any given element of a conference - 
> Is it necessary, and how much should it cost? Conference centres are 
> very expensive, this much is clear, but does FOSS4G really need a 
> single space that can handle all of its delegates at once for the 
> plenaries? How much does that add to the cost? Would universities be 
> cheaper as hosts? They certainly have the facilities, including wi-fi, 
> canteens, and (potentially) cheap accommodation; I note that the 
> FOSDEM conference ( > 5000 delegates for all of whom it is free) is 
> hosted yearly at a university in Brussels. 

Requirement (in CfL): 
"For the 2016 conference we would ask that a host be able to handle up 
to 1000 attendees." 

We are not in Brussels, our university might cover a capacity of some 
hundred, if available at all. And I guess that very often, the "core" of 
local chapters (who in the end organize FOSS4G's) are not always in the 
biggest cities of their countries. Being in the biggest cities with the 
biggest Universities would on the other side reduce possible locations 
(and normally rise up accommodation costs). 

Also, if you are not in a single building (as FOSs4G ever was) you won't 
reach the special FOSS4G feeling and spirit, you have an event where 
people might even not meet, because they are always at different 
locations. 
Very likely, a conference center or hotel is the onliest possible 
location (BTW: I am absolutely convinced that especially our location 
makes part of the spirit. 

> 
> What about the "freebies" that are included in the welcome pack - 
> conference branded pens and t-shirts? Are they really necessary? Ok, 
> maybe the pens (not everyone remembers to bring one, they get lost), 
> but the t-shirts? Bottled water (some conferences do that)? Etc. I 
> suspect these little things add up. 

Anyhow we want to reduce that to an absolute minimum. But knowing our 
community, you know that T-Shirets are nearly the most important thing 
you receive on a FOSs4G ;-). In general, compared to the other costs, 
the conference bag will be around 5 % of the total fee. So not really 
worth talking about that. 

> You make a good point Till about other costs to the conference but a 
> counter-point: I can *choose* how much I pay for the other elements. 
> I'm paying less than €40 per night accommodation for Bonn - sure there 
> are options for €100 a night, but they're not for me. It doesn't 
> matter who's paying (work or me), I always seek out a cheaper 
> alternative. 

That's a correct point, but you won't take the bus to Bonn, except you 
come from Alfter (which is very close). So you can choose, but regarding 
my travel to Korea, you can choose which airline, but the price for 
flights from Germany to Korea differ around some percentages. 

> Food is likewise - Looking at the invoice for Bonn I can see it says 
> "Food and beverages: ... € 150.00" - (excluding the Gala dinner), I'm 
> sure there's a reason for it, but to me that's a staggeringly high 
> cost, that's considerably more than I spend on a *month* of food at 
> home (UK). My last holiday (mid-price European country) my total food 
> cost came out to €16 a day. 

Correct. But if you hire WCCB you have to choose the one possible 
caterer. So no choice for us here. Giving the choice for attendees here 
(food/no food) would make on site management extremly complicated. We 
had this in Barcelona and i really did not like the various "control" 
points. 

> 
> Travel too the delegates get a choice in - I could fly Ryanair for 
> €35, but I refuse to fly so will spend about €130 on trains (book 
> early! :-) ). But that's my choice. (If a delegate really wanted to 
> they could hitch-hike and/or couch-surf to get the costs to near 0.) 
> Unfortunately for someone wishing to attend they don't get a choice in 
> the conference fees. 
> I'd also point out, as before, that the high cost of the fees also 
> makes it difficult for lower-income attendees. OSGeo has as one of its 
> stated goals "be a welcoming and inclusive worldwide organization at 
> all levels;". I'm not sure what the solution to this is, but the 
> "studentship" programme is good, as is the travel-grant. 

Don't forget people from other continents. You as European *could* take 
the train, Sanghee from Seoul could, but would take him some weeks I 
guess ;-) ! 

> 
> Comparison with a few other conferences of a similar or larger size 
> I'm aware of or quickly found: 
> FOSDEM - already mentioned. 
> ARVO - a 5 day conference that moves around the USA with > 11,000 
> clinical delegates - it doesn't include food, but the 
> late-registration conference fees for Non-Members (so their most 
> expensive fee) - $269! 
> (http://www.arvo.org/Conferences_and_Courses/Imaging_Conference/2016/Registration/). 
> http://opensourcebridge.org/attend - 500 delegates, 4 day conference - 
> $350, but an option to pay more ($500) if you want to be a "supporter" 
> - that might work for FOSS4G. 
> 
> That said, FOSS4G isn't the most expensive conference either. LinuxCon 
> (3 days) is $800 at early-bird rates, going up to $950. 
> 
> There are a few ideas scattered above that may make it cheaper (or 
> maybe won't). Another one - have the sponsors sponsor explicit things; 
> not just the "gala", but things like the pens (or even supply them), 
> or maybe the meals ("this food sponsored by 
> GeoWorldSpatialMapGlobalGIS Inc"). 

Of course we try/tried that. You are invited to support us here ;-) 

> 
> A counter point to my own argument though - the increasing delegate 
> count shows that plenty of people (or their companies in many cases) 
> are willing to pay the current rates. 
> 

> Cheers, 
> Jonathan 
> 
> 
> On 12/05/2016 10:34, till.adams at fossgis.de wrote: 
>> Hi Maxi, 
>> 
>> I pick up your discussion, but break your email into single issues, so 
>> that anyone interested in one topic can jump in. 
>> 
>> Your point: "FOSS4G CONFERENCES 
>> This is the momentum. Here i have always get inspiration from 
>> listening talks, discussing with people, talking with friends. It used 
>> to be a very inclusive event: the peak of the FOSS4G iceberg. I'm 
>> saying "it use to be" because prices are year by year growing so much 
>> that today they represent a barrier. I would have liked to came with 5 
>> people from my group but this is simply not economically sustainable: 
>> as a result the younger will lose this opportunity to join the 
>> community and breath the breeze of Open innovation. If i compare 
>> FOSS4G prices (rate per day) with other comparable events they are 
>> higher. I personally don't need fancy locations and I am more 
>> interested in involving more people rather then having high revenue 
>> for the foundation. I want to meet students, people from low income 
>> countries, small companies, start-up. Let's find a way to be Open.." 
>> 
>> is one view on FOSS4G (negotiating that OSGeo has to deal with 
>> business is another one, and I have a totally different opinion here, 
>> but that's another issue). 
>> 
>> 
>> As the "responsible" person for this years FOSS4G (and also one of the 
>> nerds, that took every FOSS4G since 2005 with one exception in 2014) I 
>> am also not really happy with our prices either, although I must say, 
>> that we are nearly equal to 2014, but more expensive than 2015, that's 
>> true. 
>> 
>> But, some important issues to take into account before we (you?) 
>> continue to dream: 
>> 
>> 1. People tend to see only the prices for the conference. If we could 
>> save 30% of our costs and being able to offer tickets for 400€ instead 
>> of 590€ (Early Bird) wouldn't make that big difference in total costs 
>> for the attendees at the end. This because there are also travel and 
>> accommodation costs which are out of our influence (see, my flight to 
>> Seoul last year was about 1200€, accommodation 700€ - looking at this, 
>> a conference fee of 400.- compared to 600.- does not really make that 
>> big difference). Even in a city like Bonn, where accommodation rates 
>> are moderate, you should at least calculate 70€/day, plus food, beer, 
>> etc. 
>> So, the fact, that tickets are more expensive than last year couldn't 
>> be the only reason not being able to bring 5 people to Bonn. Also this 
>> view completely negotiates that there are definitely costs, that we 
>> have to cover. 
>> 
>> 2. Tieing on here, although this is another discussion: The 
>> requirements of OSGeo bear some parameters, that really rise up costs: 
>> Hire a conference center, need to have a PCO and include the Gala 
>> Event. These are all nice ideas, but of course they all result in 
>> higher costs and with that in higher ticket fees. As long as OSGeo 
>> (especially you should remember ;-)) refuses to give a 100% financial 
>> backup, the calculation of income to reach the break even drives LOC's 
>> to calculate much more carefully - and with that with higher fees. 
>> 
>> 3. Regarding the most expensive part of our conference - the 
>> conference center: In most cities it is simply impossible finding a 
>> location where you could run a conference with that a size of up to 
>> 1000 attendees. And hiring a conference center is expensive, 
>> regardless where in the world. 
>> 
>> 
>> This just as a quick review - having time to think little more, I am 
>> sure I'd find many other reasons, why we should stop dreaming here 
>> when thinking about having a global conference that everybody is able 
>> to join, where you just meet good friends and have some nice beers 
>> together. Everything simply does not work as long as there is no 
>> source of income that makes LOC's and OSGeo independent of financial 
>> success of a FOSS4G conference. 
>> 
>> 
>> Perhaps there is a need for a discussion and also a decision, which 
>> focus we/OSGeo want/s to give our annual global event. As a person 
>> from the business side (which is important as engine for development 
>> of the projects, see recent email from Jeroen), I say that one global 
>> professional conference is definitely required. And having something 
>> like studentship programme, travel grants helps to enable at least 
>> some people to join that conference, that normally couldn't afford it. 
>> But most of them couldn't even afford attending anyway, even if 
>> conference fees were less than half of what they are. 
>> Perhaps the spirit of the conference that everybody could afford 
>> (especially because of travel costs), must be carried out on a 
>> regional/continental scale ? 
>> 
>> BTW: Yes, it's me arguing like this, and I am one of the last guys 
>> that fighted as long as possible to keep our FOSSGIS conference free 
>> of charge ;-) 
>> 
>> 
>> Last point - regarding your people from your group: If they are 
>> students, they could have applied for our studentship programme. They 
>> can try, but looks like that we are nearly complete here... 
>> 
>> Just my 2 (long) cents. 
>> 
>> Till 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Am 2016-05-11 11:01, schrieb massimiliano cannata: 
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
>>> From: <conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org [1]> 
>>> Date: 2016-05-11 10:41 GMT+02:00 
>>> Subject: Incubation, osgeo-EU and FOSS4G 
>>> To: massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch [2] 
>>> 
>>> Your message has been rejected, probably because you are not 
>>> subscribed to the mailing list and the lists policy is to prohibit 
>>> non-members from posting to it. If you think that your messages are 
>>> being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at 
>>> conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org [3]. 
>>> 
>>> ---------- Messaggio inoltrato ---------- 
>>> From: Massimiliano Cannata <massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch [4]> 
>>> To: OSGeo Board <board at lists.osgeo.org [5]>, OSGeo Discussions 
>>> <discuss at lists.osgeo.org [6]>, OSGeo Incubator Committee 
>>> <incubator at lists.osgeo.org [7]>, "<conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org 
>>> [8]>" <conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org [9]> 
>>> Cc: 
>>> Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:41:55 +0200 
>>> Subject: Incubation, osgeo-EU and FOSS4G 
>>> 
>>> Sorry for cross-posting but these recent topics (which took place on 
>>> different lists) took myself to reflect about our foundation. 
>>> 
>>> Summary of the long mail below (for those who dont have time go 
>>> trough 
>>> :-D ) 
>>> 
>>> ================================================================= 
>>> 
>>> DISCUSSION: only a small number of people take part to the 
>>> discussions, why? 
>>> 
>>> INCUBATION: we care about high quality, long term sustainable and 
>>> reliable solutions, who cares of governance models? 
>>> 
>>> BUSINESS AND OSGEO(EU): we are a foundation of people not of 
>>> companies, we dont have to do business! 
>>> 
>>> FOSS4G CONFERENCES: fees are a barrier, we are building exclusive 
>>> events rather then being inclusive, who care about revenue! 
>>> 
>>> More explanation of my thoughts (for those who have time to spend and 
>>> go deeper :-o ) 
>>> 
>>> ================================================================== 
>>> 
>>> Im an environmental engineer and thus far from being a rigorous 
>>> informatics or an economist or a social science expert. Nevertheless 
>>> in these last 20 years (from Bangkok to Seoul without missing a 
>>> single 
>>> one) I had the opportunity to met those words, make some experience 
>>> and learn a bit. 
>>> Thats to say that i do not have the truth in my pockets and Im open 
>>> to change my view. 
>>> 
>>> DISCUSSIONS 
>>> First a small consideration, those topics are discussed by a small 
>>> number of people with respect of the total members of our community. 
>>> It means that A) the arguments are not of high interest B) silent 
>>> people are shy and do not feel to be in the position to add value to 
>>> the conversation C) people think it is a waste of time. 
>>> This is often happening and my impression is that people just dont 
>>> care to much of these political issues but only of technical matters. 
>>> 
>>> INCUBATION 
>>> My understanding is that OSGeo trough the incubation process aims at 
>>> guarantee high quality, long term sustainable and reliable solutions 
>>> to show that FOSS Geospatial technology is valuable and credible. In 
>>> this view the governance model adopted (PSC, dictator or whatever) is 
>>> of secondary importance to me as long as the software respond to the 
>>> above mentioned requisites. I personally prefer clear process rather 
>>> then open-in-words but fake-in-fact rules. 
>>> 
>>> BUSINESS AND OSGEO(EU) 
>>> OSGeo is an organisation of people. Not of sectors or groups or 
>>> parties. Of course people belong to categories and this tend to 
>>> influence the way they see the world. For this reason people tend to 
>>> contribute to the community for their competence and interest within 
>>> committees or working groups. It is not the mandate of OSGeo making 
>>> lobbies or acquire mandates. To me OSGeo should get together great 
>>> projects and people to offer the world the possibility of advance and 
>>> improve the life of people. I know It is a bit exaggerated but when i 
>>> think of open source i see it as a mean of equity: like making 
>>> accessible food and sanitation and drinking water and medicine to 
>>> everyone in the world. Making tools for a better governance available 
>>> to all. 
>>> OSGeo is about mutually sharing experiences, ideas, solutions not 
>>> building business. For this LocationTech which is a community of 
>>> companies / entities I understood is more suited. 
>>> So my vision is OSGeo focused on people not on companies or groups. 
>>> Splitting the community is not an advancement but a loss of value. 
>>> 
>>> FOSS4G CONFERENCES 
>>> This is the momentum. Here i have always get inspiration from 
>>> listening talks, discussing with people, talking with friends. It 
>>> used 
>>> to be a very inclusive event: the peak of the FOSS4G iceberg. Im 
>>> saying "it use to be" because prices are year by year growing so much 
>>> that today they represent a barrier. I would have liked to came with 
>>> 5 
>>> people from my group but this is simply not economically sustainable: 
>>> as a result the younger will lose this opportunity to join the 
>>> community and breath the breeze of Open innovation. If i compare 
>>> FOSS4G prices (rate per day) with other comparable events they are 
>>> higher. I personally dont need fancy locations and I am more 
>>> interested in involving more people rather then having high revenue 
>>> for the foundation. I want to meet students, people from low income 
>>> countries, small companies, start-up. Lets find a way to be Open.. 
>>> 
>>> MAY THE FOSS BE WITH YOU ! 
>>> 
>>> -- -- Dr. Eng. Massimiliano Cannata 
>>> Responsabile Area Geomatica 
>>> Istituto Scienze della Terra 
>>> Scuola Universitaria Professionale della Svizzera Italiana 
>>> Via Trevano, c.p. 72 
>>> CH-6952 Canobbio-Lugano 
>>> Tel: +41 (0)58 666 62 14 
>>> Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09 
>>> 
>>> Links: 
>>> ------ 
>>> [1] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org 
>>> [2] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch 
>>> [3] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org 
>>> [4] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch 
>>> [5] mailto:board at lists.osgeo.org 
>>> [6] mailto:discuss at lists.osgeo.org 
>>> [7] mailto:incubator at lists.osgeo.org 
>>> [8] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org 
>>> [9] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org 
>> 
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