[OSGeo-Conf] [OSGeo-Discuss] FOSS4G

Fri May 20 10:17:59 PDT 2016

Jonathan,

sorry, must stop thisdiscussion here, there are many other things that 
have much more pressure and are - in my eyes - more important for us, 
LOC and FOSS4G 2016 in Bonn.

Neither the T-Shirts nor the bags are part of any further discussion 
and neither the bags nor the T-Shirts will keep anybody away from 
attending FOSS4G. Also we already sold our sponsors the possibility to 
put their stuff into the bags (which is also an important point you 
should have in mind: without sponsors, prices are much higher, than 
without bags, never mind where the conference is) . So we are not going 
to do a big community discussion on that.
Your choice is attending or not - and/or apply for FOSS4G 2019 and "do" 
instead of dream ;-)

I also think your thoughts go in the wrong direction - also I am the 
wrong person to adress. Please read what Steven replied to your email - 
in my eyes, he mentions all the important points. If you want to start a 
general discussion about the format of FOSS4G, feel free - but then 
adress your discussion to ConfCommittee, as Steven lined out. Perhaps 
there are things that might be changed for 2018 - before the event is 
given to any LOC.

But nothing to change now for 2016.

Till

Am 2016-05-20 19:00, schrieb Jonathan Moules:
> Hi Till,
> Thanks for your response and insights. I don't think we can know how
> many (if any) potential delegates have decided not to go and for what
> reason without asking, which may be a worthwhile act at some point.
>
>  "Anyhow we want to reduce that to an absolute minimum. But knowing
> our
>  community, you know that T-Shirets are nearly the most important
> thing
>  you receive on a FOSs4G ;-). In general, compared to the other 
> costs,
>  the conference bag will be around 5 % of the total fee. So not 
> really
>  worth talking about that."
>
> I'm afraid I must disagree: a 5% saving is €25-€35 per delegate,
> and it adds up if there are other places savings can be found.
> I'd also ask whether anyone has asked the community whether they want
> the "free" T-shirts etc, rather than make the assumption they do? If
> you sold the shirts at the conference then you'd have another
> potential income source and could reduce the fees for those who do 
> not
> wish to have a t-shirt. Personally if I wanted a t-shirt, I'd buy a
> t-shirt, I'm pretty conventional like that. :-)
>
>  "But if you hire WCCB you have to choose the one possible caterer."
> Maybe this is something worth considering for future venue bids: are
> the costs surrounding the venue also competitive? It sounds like in
> this case (and I suspect it's probably fairly common in the industry)
> they're using the venue as a loss-leader and making up the difference
> on the other costs (like food).
>
>  "Don't forget people from other continents. You as European *could*
> take the train, Sanghee from Seoul could, but would take him some
> weeks I guess ;-) !"
> I hear the trans-Siberian railway is very pleasant. :-)
> But yes low-cost over-land travel isn't an option for long-distance
> conferences. Fortunately FOSS4G changes continent so delegates can
> choose if they're willing to go trans-continental or not. On top of
> that, for certain sectors, delegates are *never* going to travel that
> far anyway (local govt especially). I think the airfare costs are a
> red-herring - they're another choice the delegates can choose.
>
> Kind regards,
> Jonathan
>
> ---- On Fri, 13 May 2016 11:46:45 +0100 <TILL.ADAMS at FOSS4G2016.ORG>
> wrote ----
>
>> Dear Jonathan,
>>
>> some good points and some comments from me inline. Before that, I
>> must
>> really say, that I do not think, that our fees are exceptional high
>> and
>> that the fees are really the problem that preclude many of
>> attendees.
>> But I started this discussion, so I will give some comments (also
>> knowing that doing something always brings people into the arena,
>> that
>> have different meanings).
>>
>> But I also reduce the "CC"'s to the converence dev-list. Feel free
>> to
>> share elsewhere ;-)
>>
>>> I suppose I'd ask two questions of any given element of a
>> conference -
>>> Is it necessary, and how much should it cost? Conference centres
>> are
>>> very expensive, this much is clear, but does FOSS4G really need a
>>> single space that can handle all of its delegates at once for the
>>> plenaries? How much does that add to the cost? Would universities
>> be
>>> cheaper as hosts? They certainly have the facilities, including
>> wi-fi,
>>> canteens, and (potentially) cheap accommodation; I note that the
>>> FOSDEM conference ( > 5000 delegates for all of whom it is free)
>> is
>>> hosted yearly at a university in Brussels.
>>
>> Requirement (in CfL):
>> "For the 2016 conference we would ask that a host be able to handle
>> up
>> to 1000 attendees."
>>
>> We are not in Brussels, our university might cover a capacity of
>> some
>> hundred, if available at all. And I guess that very often, the
>> "core" of
>> local chapters (who in the end organize FOSS4G's) are not always in
>> the
>> biggest cities of their countries. Being in the biggest cities with
>> the
>> biggest Universities would on the other side reduce possible
>> locations
>> (and normally rise up accommodation costs).
>>
>> Also, if you are not in a single building (as FOSs4G ever was) you
>> won't
>> reach the special FOSS4G feeling and spirit, you have an event where
>>
>> people might even not meet, because they are always at different
>> locations.
>> Very likely, a conference center or hotel is the onliest possible
>> location (BTW: I am absolutely convinced that especially our
>> location
>> makes part of the spirit.
>>
>>>
>>> What about the "freebies" that are included in the welcome pack -
>>> conference branded pens and t-shirts? Are they really necessary?
>> Ok,
>>> maybe the pens (not everyone remembers to bring one, they get
>> lost),
>>> but the t-shirts? Bottled water (some conferences do that)? Etc. I
>>
>>> suspect these little things add up.
>>
>> Anyhow we want to reduce that to an absolute minimum. But knowing
>> our
>> community, you know that T-Shirets are nearly the most important
>> thing
>> you receive on a FOSs4G ;-). In general, compared to the other
>> costs,
>> the conference bag will be around 5 % of the total fee. So not
>> really
>> worth talking about that.
>>
>>> You make a good point Till about other costs to the conference but
>> a
>>> counter-point: I can *choose* how much I pay for the other
>> elements.
>>> I'm paying less than €40 per night accommodation for Bonn - sure
>> there
>>> are options for €100 a night, but they're not for me. It doesn't
>>
>>> matter who's paying (work or me), I always seek out a cheaper
>>> alternative.
>>
>> That's a correct point, but you won't take the bus to Bonn, except
>> you
>> come from Alfter (which is very close). So you can choose, but
>> regarding
>> my travel to Korea, you can choose which airline, but the price for
>> flights from Germany to Korea differ around some percentages.
>>
>>> Food is likewise - Looking at the invoice for Bonn I can see it
>> says
>>> "Food and beverages: ... € 150.00" - (excluding the Gala
>> dinner), I'm
>>> sure there's a reason for it, but to me that's a staggeringly high
>>
>>> cost, that's considerably more than I spend on a *month* of food
>> at
>>> home (UK). My last holiday (mid-price European country) my total
>> food
>>> cost came out to €16 a day.
>>
>> Correct. But if you hire WCCB you have to choose the one possible
>> caterer. So no choice for us here. Giving the choice for attendees
>> here
>> (food/no food) would make on site management extremly complicated.
>> We
>> had this in Barcelona and i really did not like the various
>> "control"
>> points.
>>
>>>
>>> Travel too the delegates get a choice in - I could fly Ryanair for
>>
>>> €35, but I refuse to fly so will spend about €130 on trains
>> (book
>>> early! :-) ). But that's my choice. (If a delegate really wanted
>> to
>>> they could hitch-hike and/or couch-surf to get the costs to near
>> 0.)
>>> Unfortunately for someone wishing to attend they don't get a
>> choice in
>>> the conference fees.
>>> I'd also point out, as before, that the high cost of the fees also
>>
>>> makes it difficult for lower-income attendees. OSGeo has as one of
>> its
>>> stated goals "be a welcoming and inclusive worldwide organization
>> at
>>> all levels;". I'm not sure what the solution to this is, but the
>>> "studentship" programme is good, as is the travel-grant.
>>
>> Don't forget people from other continents. You as European *could*
>> take
>> the train, Sanghee from Seoul could, but would take him some weeks I
>>
>> guess ;-) !
>>
>>>
>>> Comparison with a few other conferences of a similar or larger
>> size
>>> I'm aware of or quickly found:
>>> FOSDEM - already mentioned.
>>> ARVO - a 5 day conference that moves around the USA with > 11,000
>>> clinical delegates - it doesn't include food, but the
>>> late-registration conference fees for Non-Members (so their most
>>> expensive fee) - $269!
>>>
>>
> 
> (http://www.arvo.org/Conferences_and_Courses/Imaging_Conference/2016/Registration/
>> [1]).
>>> http://opensourcebridge.org/attend [2] - 500 delegates, 4 day
>> conference -
>>> $350, but an option to pay more ($500) if you want to be a
>> "supporter"
>>> - that might work for FOSS4G.
>>>
>>> That said, FOSS4G isn't the most expensive conference either.
>> LinuxCon
>>> (3 days) is $800 at early-bird rates, going up to $950.
>>>
>>> There are a few ideas scattered above that may make it cheaper (or
>>
>>> maybe won't). Another one - have the sponsors sponsor explicit
>> things;
>>> not just the "gala", but things like the pens (or even supply
>> them),
>>> or maybe the meals ("this food sponsored by
>>> GeoWorldSpatialMapGlobalGIS Inc").
>>
>> Of course we try/tried that. You are invited to support us here ;-)
>>
>>>
>>> A counter point to my own argument though - the increasing
>> delegate
>>> count shows that plenty of people (or their companies in many
>> cases)
>>> are willing to pay the current rates.
>>>
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/05/2016 10:34, till.adams at fossgis.de [3] wrote:
>>>> Hi Maxi,
>>>>
>>>> I pick up your discussion, but break your email into single
>> issues, so
>>>> that anyone interested in one topic can jump in.
>>>>
>>>> Your point: "FOSS4G CONFERENCES
>>>> This is the momentum. Here i have always get inspiration from
>>>> listening talks, discussing with people, talking with friends. It
>> used
>>>> to be a very inclusive event: the peak of the FOSS4G iceberg. I'm
>>
>>>> saying "it use to be" because prices are year by year growing so
>> much
>>>> that today they represent a barrier. I would have liked to came
>> with 5
>>>> people from my group but this is simply not economically
>> sustainable:
>>>> as a result the younger will lose this opportunity to join the
>>>> community and breath the breeze of Open innovation. If i compare
>>>> FOSS4G prices (rate per day) with other comparable events they
>> are
>>>> higher. I personally don't need fancy locations and I am more
>>>> interested in involving more people rather then having high
>> revenue
>>>> for the foundation. I want to meet students, people from low
>> income
>>>> countries, small companies, start-up. Let's find a way to be
>> Open.."
>>>>
>>>> is one view on FOSS4G (negotiating that OSGeo has to deal with
>>>> business is another one, and I have a totally different opinion
>> here,
>>>> but that's another issue).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As the "responsible" person for this years FOSS4G (and also one
>> of the
>>>> nerds, that took every FOSS4G since 2005 with one exception in
>> 2014) I
>>>> am also not really happy with our prices either, although I must
>> say,
>>>> that we are nearly equal to 2014, but more expensive than 2015,
>> that's
>>>> true.
>>>>
>>>> But, some important issues to take into account before we (you?)
>>>> continue to dream:
>>>>
>>>> 1. People tend to see only the prices for the conference. If we
>> could
>>>> save 30% of our costs and being able to offer tickets for 400€
>> instead
>>>> of 590€ (Early Bird) wouldn't make that big difference in total
>> costs
>>>> for the attendees at the end. This because there are also travel
>> and
>>>> accommodation costs which are out of our influence (see, my
>> flight to
>>>> Seoul last year was about 1200€, accommodation 700€ - looking
>> at this,
>>>> a conference fee of 400.- compared to 600.- does not really make
>> that
>>>> big difference). Even in a city like Bonn, where accommodation
>> rates
>>>> are moderate, you should at least calculate 70€/day, plus food,
>> beer,
>>>> etc.
>>>> So, the fact, that tickets are more expensive than last year
>> couldn't
>>>> be the only reason not being able to bring 5 people to Bonn. Also
>> this
>>>> view completely negotiates that there are definitely costs, that
>> we
>>>> have to cover.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Tieing on here, although this is another discussion: The
>>>> requirements of OSGeo bear some parameters, that really rise up
>> costs:
>>>> Hire a conference center, need to have a PCO and include the Gala
>>
>>>> Event. These are all nice ideas, but of course they all result in
>>
>>>> higher costs and with that in higher ticket fees. As long as
>> OSGeo
>>>> (especially you should remember ;-)) refuses to give a 100%
>> financial
>>>> backup, the calculation of income to reach the break even drives
>> LOC's
>>>> to calculate much more carefully - and with that with higher
>> fees.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Regarding the most expensive part of our conference - the
>>>> conference center: In most cities it is simply impossible finding
>> a
>>>> location where you could run a conference with that a size of up
>> to
>>>> 1000 attendees. And hiring a conference center is expensive,
>>>> regardless where in the world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This just as a quick review - having time to think little more, I
>> am
>>>> sure I'd find many other reasons, why we should stop dreaming
>> here
>>>> when thinking about having a global conference that everybody is
>> able
>>>> to join, where you just meet good friends and have some nice
>> beers
>>>> together. Everything simply does not work as long as there is no
>>>> source of income that makes LOC's and OSGeo independent of
>> financial
>>>> success of a FOSS4G conference.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps there is a need for a discussion and also a decision,
>> which
>>>> focus we/OSGeo want/s to give our annual global event. As a
>> person
>>>> from the business side (which is important as engine for
>> development
>>>> of the projects, see recent email from Jeroen), I say that one
>> global
>>>> professional conference is definitely required. And having
>> something
>>>> like studentship programme, travel grants helps to enable at
>> least
>>>> some people to join that conference, that normally couldn't
>> afford it.
>>>> But most of them couldn't even afford attending anyway, even if
>>>> conference fees were less than half of what they are.
>>>> Perhaps the spirit of the conference that everybody could afford
>>>> (especially because of travel costs), must be carried out on a
>>>> regional/continental scale ?
>>>>
>>>> BTW: Yes, it's me arguing like this, and I am one of the last
>> guys
>>>> that fighted as long as possible to keep our FOSSGIS conference
>> free
>>>> of charge ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Last point - regarding your people from your group: If they are
>>>> students, they could have applied for our studentship programme.
>> They
>>>> can try, but looks like that we are nearly complete here...
>>>>
>>>> Just my 2 (long) cents.
>>>>
>>>> Till
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 2016-05-11 11:01, schrieb massimiliano cannata:
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: <conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org [4] [1]>
>>>>> Date: 2016-05-11 10:41 GMT+02:00
>>>>> Subject: Incubation, osgeo-EU and FOSS4G
>>>>> To: massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch [5] [2]
>>>>>
>>>>> Your message has been rejected, probably because you are not
>>>>> subscribed to the mailing list and the lists policy is to
>> prohibit
>>>>> non-members from posting to it. If you think that your messages
>> are
>>>>> being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at
>>>>> conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org [6] [3].
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Messaggio inoltrato ----------
>>>>> From: Massimiliano Cannata <massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch [7]
>> [4]>
>>>>> To: OSGeo Board <board at lists.osgeo.org [8] [5]>, OSGeo
>> Discussions
>>>>> <discuss at lists.osgeo.org [9] [6]>, OSGeo Incubator Committee
>>>>> <incubator at lists.osgeo.org [10] [7]>,
>> "<conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org [11]
>>>>> [8]>" <conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org [12] [9]>
>>>>> Cc:
>>>>> Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:41:55 +0200
>>>>> Subject: Incubation, osgeo-EU and FOSS4G
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for cross-posting but these recent topics (which took
>> place on
>>>>> different lists) took myself to reflect about our foundation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Summary of the long mail below (for those who dont have time go
>>>>> trough
>>>>> :-D )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> =================================================================
>>>>>
>>>>> DISCUSSION: only a small number of people take part to the
>>>>> discussions, why?
>>>>>
>>>>> INCUBATION: we care about high quality, long term sustainable
>> and
>>>>> reliable solutions, who cares of governance models?
>>>>>
>>>>> BUSINESS AND OSGEO(EU): we are a foundation of people not of
>>>>> companies, we dont have to do business!
>>>>>
>>>>> FOSS4G CONFERENCES: fees are a barrier, we are building
>> exclusive
>>>>> events rather then being inclusive, who care about revenue!
>>>>>
>>>>> More explanation of my thoughts (for those who have time to
>> spend and
>>>>> go deeper :-o )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> ==================================================================
>>>>>
>>>>> Im an environmental engineer and thus far from being a rigorous
>>>>> informatics or an economist or a social science expert.
>> Nevertheless
>>>>> in these last 20 years (from Bangkok to Seoul without missing a
>>>>> single
>>>>> one) I had the opportunity to met those words, make some
>> experience
>>>>> and learn a bit.
>>>>> Thats to say that i do not have the truth in my pockets and Im
>> open
>>>>> to change my view.
>>>>>
>>>>> DISCUSSIONS
>>>>> First a small consideration, those topics are discussed by a
>> small
>>>>> number of people with respect of the total members of our
>> community.
>>>>> It means that A) the arguments are not of high interest B)
>> silent
>>>>> people are shy and do not feel to be in the position to add
>> value to
>>>>> the conversation C) people think it is a waste of time.
>>>>> This is often happening and my impression is that people just
>> dont
>>>>> care to much of these political issues but only of technical
>> matters.
>>>>>
>>>>> INCUBATION
>>>>> My understanding is that OSGeo trough the incubation process
>> aims at
>>>>> guarantee high quality, long term sustainable and reliable
>> solutions
>>>>> to show that FOSS Geospatial technology is valuable and
>> credible. In
>>>>> this view the governance model adopted (PSC, dictator or
>> whatever) is
>>>>> of secondary importance to me as long as the software respond to
>> the
>>>>> above mentioned requisites. I personally prefer clear process
>> rather
>>>>> then open-in-words but fake-in-fact rules.
>>>>>
>>>>> BUSINESS AND OSGEO(EU)
>>>>> OSGeo is an organisation of people. Not of sectors or groups or
>>>>> parties. Of course people belong to categories and this tend to
>>>>> influence the way they see the world. For this reason people
>> tend to
>>>>> contribute to the community for their competence and interest
>> within
>>>>> committees or working groups. It is not the mandate of OSGeo
>> making
>>>>> lobbies or acquire mandates. To me OSGeo should get together
>> great
>>>>> projects and people to offer the world the possibility of
>> advance and
>>>>> improve the life of people. I know It is a bit exaggerated but
>> when i
>>>>> think of open source i see it as a mean of equity: like making
>>>>> accessible food and sanitation and drinking water and medicine
>> to
>>>>> everyone in the world. Making tools for a better governance
>> available
>>>>> to all.
>>>>> OSGeo is about mutually sharing experiences, ideas, solutions
>> not
>>>>> building business. For this LocationTech which is a community of
>>
>>>>> companies / entities I understood is more suited.
>>>>> So my vision is OSGeo focused on people not on companies or
>> groups.
>>>>> Splitting the community is not an advancement but a loss of
>> value.
>>>>>
>>>>> FOSS4G CONFERENCES
>>>>> This is the momentum. Here i have always get inspiration from
>>>>> listening talks, discussing with people, talking with friends.
>> It
>>>>> used
>>>>> to be a very inclusive event: the peak of the FOSS4G iceberg. Im
>>
>>>>> saying "it use to be" because prices are year by year growing so
>> much
>>>>> that today they represent a barrier. I would have liked to came
>> with
>>>>> 5
>>>>> people from my group but this is simply not economically
>> sustainable:
>>>>> as a result the younger will lose this opportunity to join the
>>>>> community and breath the breeze of Open innovation. If i compare
>>
>>>>> FOSS4G prices (rate per day) with other comparable events they
>> are
>>>>> higher. I personally dont need fancy locations and I am more
>>>>> interested in involving more people rather then having high
>> revenue
>>>>> for the foundation. I want to meet students, people from low
>> income
>>>>> countries, small companies, start-up. Lets find a way to be
>> Open..
>>>>>
>>>>> MAY THE FOSS BE WITH YOU !
>>>>>
>>>>> -- -- Dr. Eng. Massimiliano Cannata
>>>>> Responsabile Area Geomatica
>>>>> Istituto Scienze della Terra
>>>>> Scuola Universitaria Professionale della Svizzera Italiana
>>>>> Via Trevano, c.p. 72
>>>>> CH-6952 Canobbio-Lugano
>>>>> Tel: +41 (0)58 666 62 14
>>>>> Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09
>>>>>
>>>>> Links:
>>>>> ------
>>>>> [1] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org [13]
>>>>> [2] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch [14]
>>>>> [3] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org [15]
>>>>> [4] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch [16]
>>>>> [5] mailto:board at lists.osgeo.org [17]
>>>>> [6] mailto:discuss at lists.osgeo.org [18]
>>>>> [7] mailto:incubator at lists.osgeo.org [19]
>>>>> [8] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org [20]
>>>>> [9] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org [21]
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Conference_dev mailing list
>>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org [22]
>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev [23]
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org [24]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss [25]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> 
> http://www.arvo.org/Conferences_and_Courses/Imaging_Conference/2016/Registration/
> [2] http://opensourcebridge.org/attend
> [3] mailto:till.adams at fossgis.de
> [4] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org
> [5] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch
> [6] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org
> [7] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch
> [8] mailto:board at lists.osgeo.org
> [9] mailto:discuss at lists.osgeo.org
> [10] mailto:incubator at lists.osgeo.org
> [11] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> [12] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> [13] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org
> [14] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch
> [15] mailto:conference_dev-owner at lists.osgeo.org
> [16] mailto:massimiliano.cannata at supsi.ch
> [17] mailto:board at lists.osgeo.org
> [18] mailto:discuss at lists.osgeo.org
> [19] mailto:incubator at lists.osgeo.org
> [20] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> [21] mailto:conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> [22] mailto:Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
> [23] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> [24] mailto:Discuss at lists.osgeo.org
> [25] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss