[OSGeo Oceania] A discussion on openness
Violaine
violaine at posteo.net
Mon Dec 7 16:45:59 PST 2020
Hi all,
Thanks for opening up this discussion, I think it is a super healthy way
of solving issue for the community and by the community. I do think it's
extremely important to build strong bases and if there already are some
issues, it should be solved... So THANK YOU
First big clap for creating the board mailing list, and sharing meeting
notes and more stuff on the wiki, a great start also for openness. I
was missing it ^^ I also agree with Phil, that you guys at the board
should not be that hard to yourselves, this community is at its start,
there are some processes to write down, and this takes time... From as
far as I am, I don't see an issue with no solutions...
From what I see so far from afar ... one great thing would be to ensure
a safe/welcoming space for people to express themselves, which joins
what Adam said.. I don't know if this possible, as I have never seen
that before, but would it be a good thing to have a charter that each
director should sign, and engage to do its best to respect it and make
respect it? For example I would love to see in this chart, that no one
in discussions can use x years of experience, or a resume to enforce
its arguments. Anyone regardless its experience, origine, age, degree
etc should have the same voice. It's about humility, against
paternalism.. I felt there is this kind of issue, in open mailing list,
so it would be great if we could reduce it. I took part into the french
OSM community (an association), and when some people were to harsh on
mailing list (which closed the door to inclusivity), the board (one
person from it), could come privately to this person and remind some
good practice for keeping the discussion constructive...
Also, I know that some opendata communities had issues at a time because
when they engaged they had some confidentiality clauses. For example,
messages shared in private channels (out of mailing lists) were
confidentials... It think it would be heathier that all but sensitive
ones (personal informations) would be sharable in further discussions in
mailing lists.
I also really like that when there is an issue it can be discussed here;
board of directors supports the community, if there is no consensus, it
feels natural to me to open the discussion to the community, so again
thanks Ed.
And one last thing is about the money, I know that french OSM community
only accepted money/funds for running the servers, and promoting OSM
community (annuel SOTM event, and presence on events). This avoids
conflicts of interests. This ensure openess. It of course lower the
amount of money they had and their capacity to do things on OSM but on
the long run, it ensured the french OSM associations supports the OSM
community. Now french OSM community is super diverse and has a lot of
entrepreners doing great things ... Saying that as an example, not a
solution ;) I didn't get into the money/funds discussions, a matter of
time, please excuse this if you already talked about it!
This is my thoughts, hope this helps,
Violaine
PS : my 2 cents on communication channels : I do prefer emails, because
I am never on slack (only if I am pinged actually) and I can take time
to read and answer as I am not a native english speaker. SO yes to
mailing lists!
PPS: not beeing a native english speaker, I hope my words were well
chosen, if not please excuse me, wasn't on purpose!
Le 07/12/2020 à 11:27, Alex Leith a écrit :
> Hey Folks
>
> I volunteered with SSSI for 6 years, including 3 on the Board, so I've
> seen this all before. And really, we could do worse than becoming like
> SSSI, in that they are an organisation with deep roots that has been
> around in different variations for decades. SSSI is mostly run by
> volunteers, although there are a number of paid staff too. But most
> importantly, it's a group of people doing their best, and it's very
> easy to criticise the work of others, and much harder to get inside
> and actually do the work. I can look back at my time in SSSI and feel
> that I did good work. I would have liked to be more opinionated and to
> have actually dived in and made some changes that I didn't, but I've
> learnt from that, and I have a bunch of great colleagues, mentors and
> now, to some extent, mentees in that community. Also remember that
> they supported us in running our first conference while expecting us
> to make a loss! We could do a lot worse than that. Supporting someone
> in their innovation, despite expectations of something less than
> success is exactly how you empower someone. I'm grateful for SSSI's
> institutional knowledge and its community.
>
> I think it might be worth the new Board calling on someone from Linux
> Australia perhaps to talk to the Board about how they survive the
> politics and drama over time. But right now I can't imagine what I
> might ask someone like that. Because you know what? I think Phil
> captured it right. This year has been ridiculous, we're volunteers and
> we need to protect ourselves from cynicism and burnout. I trust those
> who I am on the Board with, without question. It's not a matter of
> faith, it's respect. Basic respect.
>
> On Ed's original question around openness and transparency, I hope
> conversations like this help us, but I can't help but think that they
> might be harming us. We have work that must be done, a new Board to
> onboard and some kind of conference to plan next year and having the
> same arguments about what perfection is does not get us any closer to
> that.
>
> So, like a cockroach, I'll slip back under the fridge, having survived
> another pair of boots.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alex
>
> On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 08:07, Bruce Bannerman
> <bruce.bannerman.osgeo at gmail.com
> <mailto:bruce.bannerman.osgeo at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Thank you Adam for taking the time to contribute what must have
> been a very difficult response.
>
> I value your thoughts on this.
>
> If Osgeo-Oceania is going to survive as a viable open source
> community, we need to learn from experiences such as yours and John’s.
>
> We cannot afford to turn away and lose such talent from our community.
>
> Our volunteers are our lifeblood. We cannot afford to lose any.
>
> OK, I can see that there is an issue here.
>
> It is important that we understand the root cause of what has
> caused this rift within our community.
>
> Therefore, I urge others to also share their experiences. We can
> then move forward.
>
> It is not easy establishing and nurturing a successful open source
> community. Once it is done effectively, the community will develop
> a momentum of its own.
>
> I can see that we have been very successful at attracting new
> blood to our community. However that has also brought people who
> are new to open source communities and how they need to operate to
> thrive.
>
> With some effort, we can resolve this current bump in the road.
>
> To the current and former OSGeo Oceania Directors. Thank you for
> volunteering your skills and time to lead our community. You have
> not had an easy task, and it is easy for those who have not been
> in a similar position to criticise.
>
> As a community, we can turn this situation around. We have a lot
> of experience to call on, particularly those with extensive
> international open source experience.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Bruce
>
>
> > On 8 Dec 2020, at 02:02, Adam Steer <adam.d.steer at gmail.com
> <mailto:adam.d.steer at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Ed
> >
> > Thanks for initiating this discussion. My story is long and
> boring and
> > yes, the fundamental reason for resigning is that I literally could
> > not interact with the board anymore - because of ethical concerns,
> > because it just felt like a drain on my time and energy, because I
> > really felt like I had wasted so much time being forced into
> circular
> > discussions and projects (eg communications, which is still a giant
> > and growing tangle) - so I leave this discussion and the incoming
> > board with some suggestions:
> >
> > - always remember the community does not need OSGeo Oceania, but
> OSGeo
> > Oceania needs the community.
> > - always give people space to speak for themselves, especially in
> > board meetings.
> > - always respect peoples' efforts and experience and input, and
> do it
> > consistently for everyone
> > - as John indicated, operating transparently is easy and
> fruitful. The
> > tools are there use them
> > - as you indicated, always propose a solution when a problem is
> raised
> > - remember we have a broad, caring, thoughtful, enthusiastic and
> > deeply experienced community to draw on
> > - remember we have existing patterns for open and transparent
> > operation to draw on (OSGeo in particular, the book Bruce mentioned,
> > other long established chapters of OSGeo and OSM, orgs like Linux
> > Australia), and ready collaborators for taking on projects like
> > building open conference systems
> > - remember to care about ethics, particularly around how we handle
> > personal data we are trusted with and who we hand it to. Take
> the time
> > to learn about how companies we use (eg Mailchimp) operate
> instead of
> > just glossing over data issues for convenience.
> > - value transparency over bells and whistles in communication.
> > Remember http has also been around a while but we don't call it the
> > cockroach of the internet - and even fancy mailers use ancient mail
> > transfer protocols ;). Mailing lists persist because they are
> > incredibly functional and useful.
> > - avoid becoming another SSSI.
> >
> > Congratulations on being elected to the board, I hope the
> organisation
> > remembers its roots in this coming year. I am unlikely to spend much
> > OSGeo Oceania time for a while - however feel free to reach out
> about
> > any wrinkles you find that have my name attached. I've made as much
> > mess as anyone, and haven't been particularly great at handing over
> > things
> >
> > Best,
> > Adam
> > _______________________________________________
> > Oceania mailing list
> > Oceania at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:Oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
> > https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
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> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:Oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>
>
>
> --
> Alex Leith
> m: 0419189050
>
> _______________________________________________
> Oceania mailing list
> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
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