[postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)
bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
Tue Dec 17 09:27:07 PST 2013
Hi Frank,
I've been watching this approach develop over the past few year. Some intereing approaches to using the point based methods of display that I've zeroed in on use feature that they describe as Surfels and/or Splats. Just Google those two key words and you'll see what I'm talking about.
http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~matthias/Papers/Surfels.pdf
One drawback to these approaches is that they are sort of a closed system in that they concentrate on only displaying the point based features. In the end, as a real world tool, I'll need to incorporate into this type of visualizers, I means of mixing feature types. Surface tins, CAD models, and Points. Having the points reside in a DB will both help with the integration as well as allow some processing of things to be accomplished on the fly in this mixed feature viewer.
Bobb
-----Original Message-----
From: postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Frank Henze
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:10 PM
To: PostGIS Users Discussion
Subject: Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
I dont know, at which point the downsampling should take place.
An interesting solution for webbased visualization could be XB Point Stream:
http://zenit.senecac.on.ca/wiki/index.php/XB_PointStream
Frank
Am 15.12.2013 00:45, schrieb Rémi Cura:
> I guess everybody has reached the same conclusion :
> using pointcloud is is possible to manage 100's of billions of points
> and retrieve quickly those of interest.
>
> Now most of the usage requiere severe downsampling, which isn't a part
> of anything yet but may come (I'm working on adding this to pointcloud).
> .
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rémi-C
>
>
> 2013/12/12 Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul) <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>
>
> Frank,
>
> I don't know about a group, or for that matter centering it on just
> PostGIS, but I see 3D as the next big Mapping product line that
> people are going to be looking for. PostGIS is a piece in a bigger
> puzzle. I've been researching different methods for storing and
> segmenting the point cloud data on the server side for a while now
> and PostGIS has percolated up to near the top of the list.
>
> There is a big piece related in how to generalize data for 3D
> scaling in the browser, that's the biggest shortcoming I've become
> aware of in order to make something run nicely in the browser, I've
> also of late been forcing myself to think mobile, which has it's own
> set of criteria as far as the browser goes.
>
> I would likely join the list of something call PostGIS 3d, but I
> don't know that there is enough interest for a whole community
> (yet), maybe it's better to stay ahead of the curve though.
>
>
> Bobb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Frank Henze
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:17 PM
> To: PostGIS Users Discussion
> Subject: Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
>
> Hi all,
>
> briefly a few details to http://www2.htw-dresden.de/~s68071/3DWebGIS/:
>
> - Projektauswahl: Baalbek and Palatin are static X3D models (no
> PostGIS)
> - Projektauswahl: W3DS is dynamically generated from a PostGIS 2.0 DB
> via a "GetScene"-request by Geoserver
>
> I think Baalbek is too large (too many triangles) and therefore
> possibly leads to crash. Palatin and W3DS should work.
>
> The 3D window is a standard WebGL window based on X3DOM. So it
> should run right stable.
>
> Once again my question:
> Is there an interest in a PostGIS 3D group?
>
> Frank
>
> Am 12.12.2013 16:55, schrieb Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul):
> > Frank,
> >
> > Very nice. It froze up for me pretty quickly, I tried both FF
> and Chrome. Still looked good while it ran.
> >
> > This stability aspect is a big piece of being able to make
> something that folks will want to use. Data segregation will be a
> big piece moving forward I think.
> >
> > Bobb
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> > [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Frank
> > Henze
> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:04 AM
> > To: PostGIS Users Discussion
> > Subject: Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
> >
> > Hi Bobb,
> > hi all,
> >
> > https://hub.sharedgeo.org/apps/x3d/ looks great!
> >
> > We have similar requirements for a 3d WebGIS.
> > A first prototype you can find at:
> >
> > http://www2.htw-dresden.de/~s68071/3DWebGIS/
> >
> > For "Projektauswahl:" select "W3DS"
> >
> > and then select "Historische Gebäude" (Historical Buildings)
> >
> > If there is nothing to see, then press on the left side "Alles
> anzeigen"
> >
> > We use the community buildt Geoserver incl. Web 3D service +
> X3DOM + JS.
> >
> > Some of our problems:
> >
> > How to import 3D geometries into PostGIS?
> > Which formats and interfaces (CAD, X3D)?
> > Point clouds in PostGIS (also import of).
> >
> > Is there a 3D PostGIS interest-group?
> > If not, should one established?
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > Am 11.12.2013 17:44, schrieb Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul):
> >> All,
> >>
> >> Nothing that far along. Did a couple of proofs of concept so far,
> >> I've done a couple of presentations on the Visualizer approach. We
> >> tried a couple of different things, x3Dom, allover'js
> >>
> >> You can see some of them here ( some of the pages take a while to
> >> load the data in the background, be patient):
> >>
> >> https://hub.sharedgeo.org/apps/x3d/ (these will generally need a
> >> webGL enabled browser)
> >>
> >> These are purely intended as a test of just how much data could
> >> easily be squished into the browser before if blows, so you
> might experience
> >> some failures. Ideally the data coming into these would be
> segmented
> >> via a SQL call to PostGIS Pointcloud sources.
> >>
> >> The last two in the list are using some point clouds cut from our
> >> recent data collect at 8pt per sq meter for the City (6 billion
> >> points in all), these are using about 300k points each for example.
> >>
> >> Bobb
> >>
> >> *From:*postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>] *On Behalf Of *Rémi
> >> Cura
> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:08 AM
> >> *To:* PostGIS Users Discussion
> >> *Subject:* Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
> >>
> >> I would be very interested to know any attempt to visualize 3D point
> >> cloud from data base !
> >>
> >> We did the same but our solution is far from perfect.
> >>
> >> Bob, is you rporject public/open source, have you any paper/doc
> about it ?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Rémi-C
> >>
> >> 2013/12/11 Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul) <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
> >> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>>
> >>
> >> Hmm,
> >>
> >> I'm working with the Minneapolis International Airport (MSP) on a
> >> project, any chance that data is open/accessible enough to play
> with?
> >> This could tie directly into a project I'm already working on.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Bobb
> >>
> >> *From:*postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
> >> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>] *On Behalf Of *Gerry
> >> Creager - NOAA Affiliate
> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:14 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> *To:* PostGIS Users Discussion
> >> *Subject:* Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
> >>
> >> Bob, all:
> >>
> >> I agree. I'll have to spend some time with pointcloud but it DOES
> >> look very promising.
> >>
> >> Another application? Lidar. Pointed at the sky, not at the
> ground (we
> >> use 'em to determine cloud layers [ceiling] and sky cover at
> airports
> >> for aviation data...).
> >>
> >> Thanks, all!
> >>
> >> gerry
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)
> >> <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gerry,
> >>
> >> Remi's idea about using a point cloud may be spot on for your use.
> >> It allows you to set a point cloud down to a revolution if need be,
> >> which seems like what you are looking for.. If the data becomes too
> >> massive for insertion into DB at real-time speeds, then you could
> >> also separate this revolution into separate DB's as well, you could
> >> separate a whole number of ways, by elevation, or quadrant, or . . .
> >>
> >> I'm very interested in visualization possibilities with something
> >> like this being available in a database. We're doing some
> similar db
> >> 3d visualization stuff on some rather dense point clouds. Your data
> >> once available could use the same visualizer.
> >>
> >> Bobb
> >>
> >> *From:*postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
> >> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>] *On Behalf Of *Gerry
> >> Creager - NOAA Affiliate
> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:41 PM
> >> *To:* PostGIS Users Discussion
> >> *Subject:* Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> At least preliminarily, I can post-process, so speed of db adds
> isn't
> >> too troubling. Maintaining accurate representation of the bin-volume
> >> data is, however, important.
> >>
> >> Typical rotation is 1-3 RPM, and a complete volume scan takes
> ~11 min
> >> in clear air (where you best see biologicals if so inclined) or ~5
> >> min in one of the storm data collection modes. These are for common
> >> WSR88D, stationary radars. SMARTR's and others we have here that are
> >> mobile present a whole host of other options/data eval and speed
> problems.
> >>
> >> Current radar data are nominally considered to have a horizontal
> >> resolution of ~250 m, ignoring distortion or keyholing due to
> >> range.Typically 16 elevations are scanned, once or or twice in storm
> >> mode and a few less elevations in clear air mode.
> >>
> >> Now, the interesting thing that's on the horizon is Phased Array
> Radar.
> >> When that happens, more data, more resolution, and faster updates.
> >>
> >> gerry
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)
> >> <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gerry,
> >>
> >> Seems like the biggest hangup would be in adding the data to the DB
> >> fast enough. How many points, per revolution, and what is the
> >> frequency of a revolution (stationary Radar, correct, although as I
> >> think about it, it could be mobile if needed, just need to add
> in the
> >> radar location to each record)?
> >>
> >> Bobb
> >>
> >> *From:*postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
> >> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>] *On Behalf Of *Gerry
> >> Creager - NOAA Affiliate
> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:52 AM
> >> *To:* PostGIS Users Discussion
> >> *Subject:* [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
> >>
> >> I asked this years ago, and I think Paul was less than pleased with
> >> me (:-), but:
> >>
> >> Has anyone, in the ensuing years looked at encoding radar data
> into a
> >> postGIS database? We've a little idea that might benefit one
> project,
> >> and getting the radar data into a good geospatial format would be
> >> beneficial.The data, of coure, would start out as
> radial-distance and
> >> intensity from the radar site, although we could preprocess it
> by gridding.
> >>
> >> Thanks, Gerry
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Gerry Creager
> >>
> >> NSSL/CIMMS
> >>
> >> 405.325.6371 <tel:405.325.6371>
> >>
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> "Big whorls have little whorls,
> >>
> >> That feed on their velocity;
> >>
> >> And little whorls have lesser whorls,
> >>
> >> And so on to viscosity."
> >>
> >> Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953)
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> postgis-users mailing list
> >> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Gerry Creager
> >>
> >> NSSL/CIMMS
> >>
> >> 405.325.6371 <tel:405.325.6371>
> >>
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> "Big whorls have little whorls,
> >>
> >> That feed on their velocity;
> >>
> >> And little whorls have lesser whorls,
> >>
> >> And so on to viscosity."
> >>
> >> Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953)
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> postgis-users mailing list
> >> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Gerry Creager
> >>
> >> NSSL/CIMMS
> >>
> >> 405.325.6371
> >>
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> "Big whorls have little whorls,
> >>
> >> That feed on their velocity;
> >>
> >> And little whorls have lesser whorls,
> >>
> >> And so on to viscosity."
> >>
> >> Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953)
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> postgis-users mailing list
> >> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
> <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> postgis-users mailing list
> >> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
> >>
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