[postgis-users] Old question resurfacing

Frank Henze henze at tu-cottbus.de
Wed Dec 18 00:30:09 PST 2013


Hi,

thanks for this very interesting approach!

We need LOD not only for point clouds, but also for large 3D models 
(e.g. 3D city models / CityGML). Is there a solution for PostGIS?

Interesting approaches for visualization of large 3D can also find on 
X3DOM (see homepage and search on Youtube).

Frank

Am 18.12.2013 09:01, schrieb Rémi Cura:
> Hey,
> I contacted the developper of XB PointStream specifically to ask him how
> to plug it to a postgres DB.
> It is no more an active project and he advised against it.
>
> At the other hand, with a much better licence (FreeBSD), active dev, and
> build in level Of Detail (LOD) feature (scene graph):
> http://potree.org/
>
> I asked the same question and it would be possible to plug it to db.
> We only need to develop a LOD inside DB to to make it possible to use it
> with huge database (I'm talking about 10's of billions at least in base,
> and several millions in cache/browser). ( Here my gothub project doc,
> the project is not clean enough to be used by others, but the slides
> contains some images
> :https://github.com/Remi-C/LOD_ordering_for_patches_of_points/tree/master/doc )
>
> Current WebGL limit with most graphic card seems to be around 10^6
> points, it is very small, hence the obligation to have LOD support to
> have maybe 10 * 10^6 points in cache in LOD structure in browser, and
> display  only 10^6 points, but cleverly :
> more points close to viewer camera and in front of it, few points when
> far from viewer camera, zero point behind camera.
> These are very old and effective computer graphics tricks.
>
> Cheers,
> Rémi-C
>
>
>
>
>
> 2013/12/17 Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul) <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>
>
>     Hi Frank,
>
>     I've been watching this approach develop over the past few year.
>       Some intereing approaches to using the point based methods of
>     display that I've zeroed in on use feature that they describe as
>     Surfels and/or Splats.  Just Google those two key words and you'll
>     see what I'm talking about.
>
>     http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~matthias/Papers/Surfels.pdf
>
>     One drawback to these approaches is that they are sort of a closed
>     system in that they concentrate on only displaying the point based
>     features.  In the end, as a real world tool, I'll need to
>     incorporate into this type of visualizers, I means of mixing feature
>     types.  Surface tins, CAD models, and Points.  Having the points
>     reside in a DB will both help with the integration as well as allow
>     some processing of things to be accomplished on the fly in this
>     mixed feature viewer.
>
>     Bobb
>
>
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>     [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Frank Henze
>     Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:10 PM
>     To: PostGIS Users Discussion
>     Subject: Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
>
>     I dont know, at which point the downsampling should take place.
>     An interesting solution for webbased visualization could be XB Point
>     Stream:
>     http://zenit.senecac.on.ca/wiki/index.php/XB_PointStream
>
>     Frank
>
>     Am 15.12.2013 00:45, schrieb Rémi Cura:
>      > I guess everybody has reached the same conclusion :
>      > using pointcloud is is possible to manage 100's of billions of points
>      > and retrieve quickly those of interest.
>      >
>      > Now most of the usage requiere severe downsampling, which isn't a
>     part
>      > of anything yet but may come (I'm working on adding this to
>     pointcloud).
>      > .
>      >
>      > Cheers,
>      >
>      > Rémi-C
>      >
>      >
>      > 2013/12/12 Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul) <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
>      > <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>>
>      >
>      >     Frank,
>      >
>      >     I don't know about a group, or for that matter centering it
>     on just
>      >     PostGIS, but I see 3D as the next big Mapping product line that
>      >     people are going to be looking for.  PostGIS is a piece in a
>     bigger
>      >     puzzle.  I've been researching different methods for storing and
>      >     segmenting the point cloud data on the server side for a
>     while now
>      >     and PostGIS has percolated up to near the top of the list.
>      >
>      >     There is a big piece related in how to generalize data for 3D
>      >     scaling in the browser, that's the biggest shortcoming I've
>     become
>      >     aware of in order to make something run nicely in the
>     browser, I've
>      >     also of late been forcing myself to think mobile, which has
>     it's own
>      >     set of criteria as far as the browser goes.
>      >
>      >     I would likely join the list of something call PostGIS 3d, but I
>      >     don't know that there is enough interest for a whole community
>      >     (yet), maybe it's better to stay ahead of the curve though.
>      >
>      >
>      >     Bobb
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >     -----Original Message-----
>      >     From: postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >     [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>] On Behalf Of Frank
>     Henze
>      >     Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:17 PM
>      >     To: PostGIS Users Discussion
>      >     Subject: Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
>      >
>      >     Hi all,
>      >
>      >     briefly a few details to
>     http://www2.htw-dresden.de/~s68071/3DWebGIS/:
>      >
>      >     - Projektauswahl: Baalbek  and  Palatin  are static X3D
>     models (no
>      >     PostGIS)
>      >     - Projektauswahl: W3DS   is dynamically generated from a
>     PostGIS 2.0 DB
>      >     via a "GetScene"-request by Geoserver
>      >
>      >     I think Baalbek is too large (too many triangles) and therefore
>      >     possibly leads to crash. Palatin and W3DS should work.
>      >
>      >     The 3D window is a standard WebGL window based on X3DOM. So it
>      >     should run right stable.
>      >
>      >     Once again my question:
>      >     Is there an interest in a PostGIS 3D group?
>      >
>      >     Frank
>      >
>      >     Am 12.12.2013 16:55, schrieb Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul):
>      >      > Frank,
>      >      >
>      >      > Very nice.  It froze up for me pretty quickly, I tried both FF
>      >     and Chrome.  Still looked good while it ran.
>      >      >
>      >      > This stability aspect is a big piece of being able to make
>      >     something that folks will want to use.  Data segregation will
>     be a
>      >     big piece moving forward I think.
>      >      >
>      >      > Bobb
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > -----Original Message-----
>      >      > From: postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      > [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>] On Behalf Of Frank
>      >      > Henze
>      >      > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:04 AM
>      >      > To: PostGIS Users Discussion
>      >      > Subject: Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
>      >      >
>      >      > Hi Bobb,
>      >      > hi all,
>      >      >
>      >      > https://hub.sharedgeo.org/apps/x3d/ looks great!
>      >      >
>      >      > We have similar requirements for a 3d WebGIS.
>      >      > A first prototype you can find at:
>      >      >
>      >      > http://www2.htw-dresden.de/~s68071/3DWebGIS/
>      >      >
>      >      > For "Projektauswahl:" select "W3DS"
>      >      >
>      >      > and then select "Historische Gebäude" (Historical Buildings)
>      >      >
>      >      > If there is nothing to see, then press on the left side "Alles
>      >     anzeigen"
>      >      >
>      >      > We use the community buildt Geoserver incl. Web 3D service +
>      >     X3DOM + JS.
>      >      >
>      >      > Some of our problems:
>      >      >
>      >      > How to import 3D geometries into PostGIS?
>      >      > Which formats and interfaces (CAD, X3D)?
>      >      > Point clouds in PostGIS (also import of).
>      >      >
>      >      > Is there a 3D PostGIS interest-group?
>      >      > If not, should one established?
>      >      >
>      >      > Frank
>      >      >
>      >      > Am 11.12.2013 17:44, schrieb Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul):
>      >      >> All,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Nothing that far along.  Did a couple of proofs of
>     concept so far,
>      >      >> I've done a couple of presentations on the Visualizer
>     approach.  We
>      >      >> tried a couple of different things, x3Dom, allover'js
>      >      >>
>      >      >> You can see some of them here ( some of the  pages take a
>     while to
>      >      >> load the data in the background, be patient):
>      >      >>
>      >      >> https://hub.sharedgeo.org/apps/x3d/  (these will
>     generally need a
>      >      >> webGL enabled browser)
>      >      >>
>      >      >> These are purely intended as a test of just how much data
>     could
>      >      >> easily be squished into the browser before if blows, so you
>      >     might experience
>      >      >> some failures.   Ideally the data coming into these would be
>      >     segmented
>      >      >> via a SQL call to PostGIS Pointcloud sources.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> The last two in the list are using some point clouds cut
>     from our
>      >      >> recent data collect at 8pt per sq meter for the City (6
>     billion
>      >      >> points in all), these are using about 300k points each
>     for example.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Bobb
>      >      >>
>      >      >> *From:*postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      >> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>] *On Behalf Of *Rémi
>      >      >> Cura
>      >      >> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:08 AM
>      >      >> *To:* PostGIS Users Discussion
>      >      >> *Subject:* Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
>      >      >>
>      >      >> I would be very interested to know any attempt to
>     visualize 3D point
>      >      >> cloud from data base !
>      >      >>
>      >      >> We did the same but our solution is far from perfect.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Bob, is you rporject public/open source, have you any
>     paper/doc
>      >       about it ?
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Cheers,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Rémi-C
>      >      >>
>      >      >> 2013/12/11 Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)
>     <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
>      >     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>
>      >      >> <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
>      >     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>>>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Hmm,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> I'm working with the Minneapolis International Airport
>     (MSP) on a
>      >      >> project, any chance that  data is open/accessible enough
>     to play
>      >     with?
>      >      >> This could tie directly into a project I'm already
>     working on.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Thanks
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Bobb
>      >      >>
>      >      >> *From:*postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>>
>      >      >> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>>] *On Behalf Of *Gerry
>      >      >> Creager - NOAA Affiliate
>      >      >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:14 PM
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> *To:* PostGIS Users Discussion
>      >      >> *Subject:* Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Bob, all:
>      >      >>
>      >      >> I agree. I'll have to spend some time with pointcloud but
>     it DOES
>      >      >> look very promising.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Another application? Lidar. Pointed at the sky, not at the
>      >     ground (we
>      >      >> use 'em to determine cloud layers [ceiling] and sky cover at
>      >     airports
>      >      >> for aviation data...).
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Thanks, all!
>      >      >>
>      >      >> gerry
>      >      >>
>      >      >> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)
>      >      >> <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
>      >     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>
>      >     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
>      >     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>>> wrote:
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Gerry,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Remi's idea about using a point cloud may be spot on for
>     your use.
>      >      >> It allows you to set a point cloud down to a revolution
>     if need be,
>      >      >> which seems like what you are looking for..  If the data
>     becomes too
>      >      >> massive for insertion into DB at real-time speeds, then
>     you could
>      >      >> also separate this revolution into separate DB's as well,
>     you could
>      >      >> separate a whole number of ways, by elevation, or
>     quadrant, or . . .
>      >      >>
>      >      >> I'm very interested in visualization possibilities with
>     something
>      >      >> like this being available in a database.  We're doing some
>      >     similar db
>      >      >> 3d visualization stuff on some rather dense point clouds.
>       Your data
>      >      >> once available could use the same visualizer.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Bobb
>      >      >>
>      >      >> *From:*postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>>
>      >      >> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>>] *On Behalf Of *Gerry
>      >      >> Creager - NOAA Affiliate
>      >      >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:41 PM
>      >      >> *To:* PostGIS Users Discussion
>      >      >> *Subject:* Re: [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Bob
>      >      >>
>      >      >> At least preliminarily, I can post-process, so speed of
>     db adds
>      >     isn't
>      >      >> too troubling. Maintaining accurate representation of the
>     bin-volume
>      >      >> data is, however, important.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Typical rotation is 1-3 RPM, and a complete volume scan takes
>      >     ~11 min
>      >      >> in clear air (where you best see biologicals if so
>     inclined) or ~5
>      >      >> min in one of the storm data collection modes. These are
>     for common
>      >      >> WSR88D, stationary radars. SMARTR's and others we have
>     here that are
>      >      >> mobile present a whole host of other options/data eval
>     and speed
>      >     problems.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Current radar data are nominally considered to have a
>     horizontal
>      >      >> resolution of ~250 m, ignoring distortion or keyholing due to
>      >      >> range.Typically 16 elevations are scanned, once or or
>     twice in storm
>      >      >> mode and a few less elevations in clear air mode.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Now, the interesting thing that's on the horizon is
>     Phased Array
>      >     Radar.
>      >      >> When that happens, more data, more resolution, and faster
>     updates.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> gerry
>      >      >>
>      >      >> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)
>      >      >> <bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
>      >     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>
>      >     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>
>      >     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us
>     <mailto:bob.basques at ci.stpaul.mn.us>>>> wrote:
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Gerry,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Seems like the biggest hangup would be in adding the data
>     to the DB
>      >      >> fast enough.  How many points, per revolution, and what
>     is the
>      >      >> frequency of a revolution (stationary Radar, correct,
>     although as I
>      >      >> think about it, it could be mobile if needed, just need
>     to add
>      >     in the
>      >      >> radar location to each record)?
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Bobb
>      >      >>
>      >      >> *From:*postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>>
>      >      >> [mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      >> <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>>>] *On Behalf Of *Gerry
>      >      >> Creager - NOAA Affiliate
>      >      >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:52 AM
>      >      >> *To:* PostGIS Users Discussion
>      >      >> *Subject:* [postgis-users] Old question resurfacing
>      >      >>
>      >      >> I asked this years ago, and I think Paul was less than
>     pleased with
>      >      >> me (:-), but:
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Has anyone, in the ensuing years looked at encoding radar
>     data
>      >     into a
>      >      >> postGIS database? We've a little idea that might benefit one
>      >     project,
>      >      >> and getting the radar data into a good geospatial format
>     would be
>      >      >> beneficial.The data, of coure, would start out as
>      >     radial-distance and
>      >      >> intensity from the radar site, although we could
>     preprocess it
>      >     by gridding.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Thanks, Gerry
>      >      >>
>      >      >> --
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Gerry Creager
>      >      >>
>      >      >> NSSL/CIMMS
>      >      >>
>      >      >> 405.325.6371 <tel:405.325.6371>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> ++++++++++++++++++++++
>      >      >>
>      >      >> "Big whorls have little whorls,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> That feed on their velocity;
>      >      >>
>      >      >> And little whorls have lesser whorls,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> And so on to viscosity."
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953)
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> _______________________________________________
>      >      >> postgis-users mailing list
>      >      >> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>>
>      >      >> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> --
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Gerry Creager
>      >      >>
>      >      >> NSSL/CIMMS
>      >      >>
>      >      >> 405.325.6371 <tel:405.325.6371>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> ++++++++++++++++++++++
>      >      >>
>      >      >> "Big whorls have little whorls,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> That feed on their velocity;
>      >      >>
>      >      >> And little whorls have lesser whorls,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> And so on to viscosity."
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953)
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> _______________________________________________
>      >      >> postgis-users mailing list
>      >      >> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>>
>      >      >> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> --
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Gerry Creager
>      >      >>
>      >      >> NSSL/CIMMS
>      >      >>
>      >      >> 405.325.6371
>      >      >>
>      >      >> ++++++++++++++++++++++
>      >      >>
>      >      >> "Big whorls have little whorls,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> That feed on their velocity;
>      >      >>
>      >      >> And little whorls have lesser whorls,
>      >      >>
>      >      >> And so on to viscosity."
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953)
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> _______________________________________________
>      >      >> postgis-users mailing list
>      >      >> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>      >     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>>
>      >      >> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >>
>      >      >> _______________________________________________
>      >      >> postgis-users mailing list
>      >      >> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      >> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >      >>
>      >      > _______________________________________________
>      >      > postgis-users mailing list
>      >      > postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      > http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > _______________________________________________
>      >      > postgis-users mailing list
>      >      > postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      >      > http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >      >
>      >     _______________________________________________
>      >     postgis-users mailing list
>      > postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      > http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >
>      >
>      >     _______________________________________________
>      >     postgis-users mailing list
>      > postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
>     <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>>
>      > http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > postgis-users mailing list
>      > postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>      > http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>      >
>     _______________________________________________
>     postgis-users mailing list
>     postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org>
>     http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
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>
>     _______________________________________________
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>     http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> postgis-users mailing list
> postgis-users at lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/postgis-users
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