[Qgis-psc] QGIS budget 2023 RFC
Richard Duivenvoorde
rdmailings at duif.net
Wed Dec 7 23:59:32 PST 2022
Yeah, /me also hugging Marco :-)
On 12/8/22 01:35, Tim Sutton wrote:
> Huge +1 from me too - thanks Marco!
>
> Regards
>
> Tim
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 2:35 PM Jeff McKenna <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com <mailto:jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear Marco,
>
> I want to thank-you for this summary, and give you specifically a pat on
> the back (or hug?). Yes it's a whole community, but you took the time
> to tackle a summary of topics that can be quite sensitive. You are
> doing a great job as the chair. (sometimes we forget to thank people
> directly) Life isn't easy, but your summary really helped make sense of
> it all.
>
> Thank-you,
>
> -jeff
> (no title, just a huge longtime supporter of QGIS & QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG>)
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2022-12-06 11:57 a.m., Marco Bernasocchi via QGIS-Developer wrote:
> > Dear all, thanks a lot for all the feedback,
> >
> >
> > As you might remember, the aim of the thread was indeed to discuss the
> > proposed budget, so I'll to try to address most of the mentioned points
> > in all emails without a specific order, trying to convey how things came
> > to this proposal and why the PSC believes it is the best way forward for
> > QGIS.org.
> >
> >
> > As a first reminder, all the discussions happened in public, and you can
> > read the minutes at https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/wiki#psc-meetings <https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/wiki#psc-meetings>
> > <https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/wiki#psc-meetings <https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/wiki#psc-meetings>>.
> >
> >
> > The proposal came out of a need to solve a pressing issue we've been
> > dragging along for some time now and "escalated" when Harrisou sent once
> > again an appeal for help, and nobody from the developer ml responded [1]:
> >
> > I'll quote it as a reminder of the stark message showing how alone he
> > felt in his efforts:
> >
> >
> >>It's reassuring to discover that there are other channels; at
> >
> >>least I can say to myself that the total silence to my call is not due to
> >
> >>some disinterest. - Harrisou
> >
> >
> > Even to this, the only answers were from Tim suggesting to Harrisou to
> > join the next PSC to find solutions. The result of the PSC discussions
> > was the proposal to add a full-time paid documentation person to
> > effectively help Harrisou do what he has been trying to do for years
> > alone. He is doing a tremendous job in a part of the project where it is
> > challenging to get resources committed to it, and even when there were
> > funds available, funded documentation efforts thus far have barely
> > scratched the surface of the work that needs to be done. Even to the
> > appeal above, the only answers were from Tim suggesting to Harrisou to
> > join the next PSC to find solutions.
> >
> >
> > Harrisou and Tim (Harrissou looking after docs, Tim looking after
> > various web servers & sites) stand, as volunteers, to amplify their
> > efforts through the paid helpers rather than have their efforts replaced
> > by paid people.
> >
> >
> > Regarding the QGIS infrastructure, the fact is that despite trying to
> > onboard other people as volunteers, nobody is that interested in working
> > on these things. Tim mentioned personally having walked various people
> > through 'onboarding' as a sysadmin, and nothing came of it. Richard and
> > Jürgen (who also help manage the infrastructure) may have different
> > feelings, but Tim feels he is (allow me a direct quote here with his
> > permission) "getting older and dumber," and we should have a plan in
> > place to make sure the infrastructure that keeps the project running is
> > professionally managed even when he will be too busy running his
> > ever-growing farm :)
> >
> > Jürgen also mentioned the same issue regarding the infrastructure behind
> > windows packaging in the past.
> >
> >
> > Regarding transparency of the decision proposed, I'd like to separate
> > the issue into three parts; 1) transparency regarding using Kartoza as a
> > proxy, 2) transparency in hiring and finally and 3) transparency in the
> > process of deciding to try hiring ‘outside’ people to support our project.
> >
> >
> > Starting with the last point, I'd like to remind you all that we are
> > indeed discussing if we want to accept this proposal right here in this
> > thread, and finally, it will go to the voting members for
> > decision-making. I really need help seeing how the PSC is not being
> > transparent here. I'm saddened to see a perception of us trying to hide
> > things when all is openly discussed/logged in reality.
> >
> >
> > Regarding using Kartoza as a proxy company, it was indeed not selected
> > based on being an open call - much like we appoint trusted developers to
> > do bug fixing or other key efforts for the project. We are thankful to
> > Kartoza for taking over the burden of doing it. Quoting Tim again: "It
> > is only a hassle for us, and I only offered to do it through Kartoza to
> > ‘make it happen’ rather than some desire to do it through Kartoza".
> > Obviously, if the community wishes to use another company/individuals
> > here, it is absolutely no problem to open the proxy up to another
> > company. If anyone is interested, please contact the PSC mailing list
> > with a concrete proposal on how to go forward.
> >
> >
> > Finally, on the transparency in hiring: this doesn't make any sense to
> > me. Hiring is a private process. People send their private CVs, often in
> > secret, from their current employers, to whom they are being "disloyal".
> > People applying should not have visibility of their competitors for the
> > job. In the case of Kartoza, they have a POPIA [2] (something like
> > GDPR), which governs what personal information they can share.
> >
> >
> > Tim has shared all of the documentation writer's CVs with Harrissou, and
> > he can pick whoever he thinks is best for the job. Tim also gave some
> > recommendations based on basic screening of GIS skills, technical
> > writing skills, whether they submitted a writing sample etc. For the
> > infrastructure developer position, they sent all the applicants a
> > standard assignment as they do as part of their normal recruitment
> > process and had their developers review and shortlist. I don't know how
> > we could sensibly (stressing that part since QGIS.org is not Google and
> > the like...) do anything differently. Here also, we are more than happy
> > if others have better know-how to come up with constructive proposals on
> > handling things if the budget items are approved.
> >
> >
> > Please note that Kartoza would absorb the candidates they found or
> > discontinue the hiring process if the budget was not approved.
> >
> >
> > Another raised issue was that paid support people would demotivate
> > volunteers: When we started with the paid bug fixing programme and other
> > funded development, there was the same fear expressed; I think the
> > success of those programs and the incredible amount of volunteer-driven
> > contributions we are getting speak for themselves. We need to catch up
> > on non-coders, as Jeff McKenna said (although out of a misread); we have
> > been a bit stuck in the 2000s, where developers are the superstars.
> > Currently, developers creating new shiny features are often getting much
> > more [visibility|kudos|salary|...] in return, even though people "behind
> > the scenes" writing documentation, translating stuff, triaging bugs,
> > reviewing PRs, managing servers, keeping CI happy, ... are the actual
> > superstars and should be treated as such.
> >
> >
> > It is indicative to me that we, unfortunately, are still partly back in
> > 2000 when I read comments like: "one of my takes is that seeing the
> > grant budget disappear this year is a pity, especially seeing other
> > amounts dedicated to documentation, for example.". The grant programme
> > is indeed a fantastic program, and it is a shame to see it downsized,
> > but our documentation and web infrastructure are also important. The
> > work that happens in these areas is less visible and garners less
> > attention. And yes, for once, we propose to downscale coding in favour
> > of documentation. Hurra to that!
> >
> >
> > Regarding the note on social dumping, I do not agree at all with that.
> > We are offering a highly competitive salary in the market where the
> > applicants live; this is a widely respected practice done by projects
> > like Google Summer of code as well. A nice side effect is that we are
> > starting to use funds in economies other than the usual "Rich" countries
> > where probably 90-95% of our funds usually go.
> >
> >
> > As for the budget always needing to be bigger, we run a world-leading
> > software project for millions of people on a budget [apparently]
> > equivalent to the price of 50 licenses of our main competitor. We (the
> > whole QGIS community, not the PSC) are doing a pretty darn good job,
> > thanks to the countless hours of passionate work put into it by
> > volunteers and companies alike. We are far from perfect, we have a "get
> > things done while respecting others" attitude, and we have to make
> > compromises for efficiency. I'd never want to see any one of the members
> > of our community having to stop working on the project due to feeling
> > burnout from it.
> >
> >
> > I hope I could address and answer most questions, and I encourage you to
> > look at the open-source landscape around us and see how successful
> > projects like KDE and Blender are doing the same thing as we propose
> > doing here.
> >
> >
> > So for those responding to this thread in a quick fly-by reply, I appeal
> > to you to put some thought into why you object to this, who your
> > objection affects, what advantage objecting brings to the project versus
> > what benefit agreeing brings to the project, who's time and enthusiasm
> > you value and whose you don't."
> >
> >
> > As mentioned above, please join the PSC call starting soon if you wish
> > to discuss this more.
> >
> >
> > Cheers Marco
> >
> > [1]
> > https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2022-November/065211.html <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2022-November/065211.html> <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2022-November/065211.html <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2022-November/065211.html>>
> >
> > [2] https://popia.co.za/ <https://popia.co.za/> <https://popia.co.za/ <https://popia.co.za/>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Marco Bernasocchi
> >
> >
> > QGIS.org Chair
> >
> > OPENGIS.ch CEO
> >
> > http://berna.io <http://berna.io> <http://berna.io <http://berna.io>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [1]
> > https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2022-November/065211.html <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2022-November/065211.html> <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2022-November/065211.html <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/qgis-developer/2022-November/065211.html>>
> > [2] https://popia.co.za/ <https://popia.co.za/> <https://popia.co.za/ <https://popia.co.za/>>
> >
> > On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 at 18:18, Enrico Ferreguti <enricofer at gmail.com <mailto:enricofer at gmail.com>
> > <mailto:enricofer at gmail.com <mailto:enricofer at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > > As for A, one of my take is that seeing the grant budget
> > disappear this year is a pity, especially seeing other amounts
> > dedicated to documentation for example.
> >
> > I agree with Vincent and Matteo and even if I understand the need of
> > fund bugfixing and qt6 migration I would strongly recommend to
> > improve grants budget as a consistent way to interact with
> > community, furthermore I would enlarge core developers audience in
> > any way with targeted training and social involvement and lowering
> > the needed technical contribution skills. I thank you all for
> > sharing this interesting discussion.
> >
> > Il giorno lun 5 dic 2022 alle ore 11:27 Vincent Picavet (ml) via
> > QGIS-Developer <qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org>
> > <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org>>> ha scritto:
> >
> > Hi Andreas, all,
> >
> > On 24/11/2022 16:09, Andreas Neumann wrote:
> > [..]
> > > We did not really discuss the hourly rates at the budget meeting.
> > > From 2021 to 2022 we raised the hourly dev rates from 100 to
> > 110 -
> > > and the hourly documentation rates from 40 to 44. I know that
> > both
> > > rates are low. We can discuss raising them again.
> >
> > My question was general, and actually includes all prices. I
> > have no definite opinion on this topic, as it can be complicated
> > given the disparity of inflation according to what price we are
> > talking about, and also geographically speaking.
> >
> > > The plan for the two positions was not to have direct
> > employees of
> > > QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG> <http://QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG>> <http://QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG>
> > <http://QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG>>>, but to use a proxy company, in our case
> > > Kartoza, to act as the employer. Also - our budget does not allow
> > > regular European or North-American salaries. With these
> > limitations
> > > at hand, we can use Kartoza as a proxy to hire employees in
> > certain
> > > parts of the world where the salaries we can offer can be
> > attractive
> > > - and where they have talented people to work on some of our
> > issues
> > > (sysadmin, documentation, etc.)
> >
> > I have very mixed feelings about this, and it raises lots of
> > questions we definitely have to clear out before establishing
> > any process.
> >
> > - Using a proxy company is very similar to me than having direct
> > employees, if these positions have no clear limits of time and
> > perimeter
> > - Using a proxy company instead of direct employees can be
> > considered illegal according to local legislation. I do not know
> > for Swiss law.
> > - How was Kartoza selected ? Was there an open process for other
> > companies to apply ? Who decided and on what criteria ? The fact
> > that the company owned by a member of QGIS PSC is selected is a
> > big red flag for me, if the process is not fully transparent and
> > fair for others.
> > - "our budget does not allow European or North-American
> > salaries" : see below for the budget volume comments. But I have
> > very mixed feelings about this statement : it sounds exactly
> > like social dumping. I do not know what would be fair to select
> > employees, and I recognize it to be a complex issue, but in some
> > ways it does not feel right.
> >
> > > For the documentation part: Tim and Harrissou are involved in the
> > > selection process of the candidates.
> >
> > Is the process and selection committee documented somewhere ?
> >
> > > I agree that the grant budget with 10k is not very attractive. We
> > > also discussed skipping it for one year. Not sure what is
> > better ...
> > >
> > > BTW: you can all help to find new sustaining members ... that
> > would
> > > increase our budget and would allow us to pay better hourly rates
> > > ...
> > >
> > > I wish we had a larger budget at hand than the +/- 200k € we
> > seem to
> > > be able to attract each year. From certain countries where we
> > know we
> > > have a lot of QGIS users (France, Italy - just to name two of
> > them)
> > > there are not a lot of sustaining members or donations other than
> > > from a few private persons and very small companies. Maybe
> > companies
> > > like yours could help us to get in touch with the larger
> > companies
> > > with a lot of QGIS users that could become new sustaining
> > members ...
> > > Do you think that would be possible?
> >
> > First of all, complaining that our budget is too low is
> > definitely not the way to consider the problem : QGIS.org budget
> > will, by definition, **always** be too low compared to what we
> > could need. Developing a software and managing a community is a
> > boundless task and you can always find tasks and work packages
> > to spend all the money you can imagine of.
> >
> > I agree that QGIS.org could attract more sustaining members. I
> > just hope you are not accusing Oslandia of not doing our job of
> > proselitysm, QGIS community support, communication and globally
> > QGIS.org and QGIS software contributions. We do our part for sure.
> >
> > ... And this is not the point, as I said the question I raise is
> > not how to increase our budget, since the exact same issues will
> > araise with a larger budget.
> >
> > The questions are :
> > - A/ how do we use our existing budget for most important things
> > to support
> > - B/ what our decisions processes are, where are they
> > documented, and are they clear, transparent and fair
> >
> > As for A, one of my take is that seeing the grant budget
> > disappear this year is a pity, especially seeing other amounts
> > dedicated to documentation for example.
> >
> > As for B, I consider that there is a lot of progress to do to
> > make recent decisions and actions clean and trustworthy.
> >
> > Should we want to attract new sustaining members giving money to
> > QGIS.org, we must have an exemplary behaviour in how we decide
> > how to use this money.
> >
> > Vincent
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Andreas
> > >
> > > On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 15:05, Vincent Picavet (ml) via
> > QGIS-Developer
> > > <qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org>
> > <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org>>
> > > <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org>
> > <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:qgis-developer at lists.osgeo.org>>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Thanks for sharing the budget with the community.
> > >
> > > A few questions / remarks : - in most countries, we can see a
> > general
> > > inflation, having consequences on every kind of costs ( hosting,
> > > salaries…). Did you take this context into account when
> > preparing the
> > > budget, especially when basing planned 2023 costs on actual 2022
> > > costs ? - the cut on Grant budget is really hard. With a
> > "reasonable"
> > > mean budget of 5K per grant, this would mean 2 grants only
> > this year.
> > > It sounds more or less like the end of the grant program. Who
> > would
> > > candidate if chances to be selected are really low ? Wouldn't
> > there
> > > be a way to mitigate it a bit, through various smaller budget
> > > reductions to other budget lines ? The increase in documentation
> > > contribution is huge compared to the grant decrease. I fear
> > that we
> > > loose grants as a mean to attract new core developers.
> > >
> > > My most important remark is about "allow for a regular small
> > salary
> > > .. for one person on each item". Disclaimer : I am quite strongly
> > > against QGIS.org having employees. If we are in the process
> > of having
> > > "regular workers" for qgis.org <http://qgis.org> <http://qgis.org <http://qgis.org>>
> > <http://qgis.org <http://qgis.org> <http://qgis.org <http://qgis.org>>>, then we really have
> > > to work hard on : - having a clear, written and transparent
> > process
> > > for how to select these people - .. process including a fair
> > way for
> > > anyone to candidate I may have missed some communications,
> > but I have
> > > not seen this in place up to now. This is definitely something we
> > > have to put in place before having some internal troubles.
> > >
> > > Best regards, Vincent
> > >
> > > On 24/11/2022 12:07, Marco Bernasocchi wrote:
> > >> Hi all, we prepared the QGIS budget for 2023 and would like to
> > >> have feedback before submitting it to the voting members for
> > >> approval. You can directly leave comments in the file [1].
> > >>
> > >> Please let us have any Feedback until December 4th. On december
> > >> 7th we'll send the budget for vote.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers Marco
> > >>
> > >> [1]
> > >>
> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing>>
> > >>
> > <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing>>>
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing>>
> > >
> > <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WyoZCKOehNhU5YB4pFPOuiJbie1mUmMPiq8YW7qyez0/edit?usp=sharing>>>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> -- Marco Bernasocchi
> > >>
> > >> QGIS.org Chair OPENGIS.ch CEO http://berna.io <http://berna.io>
> > <http://berna.io <http://berna.io>> <http://berna.io <http://berna.io> <http://berna.io <http://berna.io>>>
> > >> <http://berna.io <http://berna.io> <http://berna.io <http://berna.io>> <http://berna.io <http://berna.io>
> > <http://berna.io <http://berna.io>>>>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________ Qgis-psc
> > mailing
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> > >
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> > > --
> > >
> > > -- Andreas Neumann QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG> <http://QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG>>
> > <http://QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG> <http://QGIS.ORG <http://QGIS.ORG>>> board member
> > > (treasurer)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > QGIS-Developer mailing list
> > QGIS-Developer at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:QGIS-Developer at lists.osgeo.org>
> > <mailto:QGIS-Developer at lists.osgeo.org <mailto:QGIS-Developer at lists.osgeo.org>>
> > List info:
> > https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer <https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer>
> > <https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer <https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer>>
> > Unsubscribe:
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> > <https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer <https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer>>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Marco Bernasocchi
> >
> > QGIS.org Chair
> > OPENGIS.ch CEO
> > http://berna.io <http://berna.io> <http://berna.io <http://berna.io>>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Tim Sutton
> Visit http://kartoza.com <http://kartoza.com/> to find out about open source:
> * Desktop GIS programming services
> * Geospatial web development
> * GIS Training
> * Consulting Services
> Tim is a member of the QGIS Project Steering Committee
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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